Stark reality for India: Chinese Military and Naval Bases in Pakistan. Image via Wikipedia
The old Kenny Roger’s song “Know when to hold ‘em and know when to fold ‘em” applies perfectly to the Great Game being played int he Khyber, Pamir and the Hindu Kush. From the Ganges, to the Indus, from the Kabul River to Yangtze, from the Volga to the Potomac, the moves and counter moves have confounded Delhi. It is simply unprepared to deal with the realities of the AfPak region. Every time it seems to get a step ahead it finds itself two steps behind. It signs a Strategic Agreement with Washington to find out that the Nuclear Deal with the US may never be consummated. On the eve of signing an agreement with Afghanistan, Karzai says that Pakistna is a twin brother–and two weeks later says that Afghanistan will support Pakistan if there is a war with Bharat.
Some analysts have said, Bharat has never been able to understand Afghanistan–and never will. Pakistan understands them because millions were born in Pakistan, and thousands visit Pakistan every day. Every city in Pakistan has Afghans, and ever city and village in Afghanistan has Pakhtuns who were born in Pakistan, visit Pakistan, and live in both countries. This is a fact of life. The Torkham border is the world’s friendlies border, with thousands crossing the gates without a passport, ID card or a check. They folks cross over as if they are moving across a shopping mall. The Tribes across the Durand Line breath the same philosophy and are united in ethnicity, race, religion, dress, cuisine and social custom. They are also bound in economic activity, and other activities like drugs, smuggling and poppy-growing.
The fact that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has accepted the Pakistani point of view on Afghanistan did not happen in a vacuum. The sole Superpower suddenly does not change its mind. There were several factors which led to the Clinton acquiescence to the Pakistani demands, and the abandonment of the US diktats. The current government of Pakistan has been unable to resolve some of the domestic issues, and has been a colossal failure on the economic front—however it has been brilliant in it foreign policy. The troika, of Zardari, Gilani and Kayani put their heads together and took the advice of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto–one cannot convince a Superpower, try to change its mind, remind it of past services, fight it, or implore it in the name of justice and fair-play. The only way to deal with a superpower is to form regional alliances and build itself up internally–showing a united front. The troika seems to have done both. The APC was a dramatic move and showed the world that all political parties were united about not attacking the Haqqanis, and wanted to seek peace with the militants. Once internal consensus was reached, the Pakistanis stood firm.
Despite the fire and brimstone speeches in Washington, and Kabul, when the US Secretary of State reached Islamabad, she was singing a different tune. Whatever she smoked that morning, the Americans need more it. After leading a high level delegation to Islamabad, Clinton clearly said that she has acquiesced to the Pakistani point of view–on waging peace with the Haqqanis and pulling them into the government. Clinton also clearly said that Pakistan has a role in the peace process and that she understood Pakistan’s constraints in attacking the Haqqanis. This tune was so very different than what Mullen and Panetta had said, that it seems incredible.
What has changed–and what transpired that the Obama Administration had to row back on its rhetoric and agree to the Pakistani initiative. The new policy can be described in one word–China.
When the Pakistanis publicly asked for the Naval base, it was to counterbalance the silly statements made by President Obama in Delhi uttered on November 8th, 2010. After the failure of the summit to agree on the Nuclear Liability issue and the 123 fiasco (has not seen any movement on it in a decade), Obama tried to curry favor with the Bharatis by voicing limited and qualified support for Delhi in the UNSC. It was a promise he could not deliver on–because it is not something that Obama owns. It was an act of desperation to save the relationship with Delhi–however it sent tsunami waves across the Radcliff Line–the Pakistani conclusion–Obama could not be trusted and Pakistan had to find and firm up new alliances. A decision was also made to turn down US military aid.
That statement was the beginning of the dramatic decline of the US-Pakistani relationship.
Here is an sentence that sent alarm bells ringing in Washington and Delhi. “We would be grateful to the Chinese government if a naval base is constructed at the site of Gwadar for Pakistan…We have asked our Chinese brothers to please build a naval base at Gwadar port.” Defense Minister Ahmed Mukhtar. May 21, 2011
Islamabad has wanted China to build a naval in Gwadar. Press reports however indicate that China is more interested in setting up military bases either in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) or Gilgit-Baltistan (GB) that borders the Chinese Xinjiang province.
As a result of Obama’s blunders, the Abbotabad raid, the exponential increase in drone bombings, the negative rhetoric from Washington–there has been an increased level of traffic between Islamabad and Beijing. The stakes are high in Afghanistan and it seems China and Pakistan are in lock-step. The high-profile and public visits by Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar, by President Asif Ali Zardari and the trip by the director general of the Inter-Services Intelligence, Lieutenant General Ahmed Shuja Pasha–are simply the tip of the iceberg. China and Pakistan have bee integrating their economy and creating long lasting structures that will enable a greater level of economic integration. The fact that many Pakistani children will learn Chinese in Elementary and Middle School is long reaching consequences for the region. The only other country in the world that has done this is Sweden.
On September 28 the Chinese Vice Premier Meng Jianzhu visited Pakistan–on the eve of Mullen’s rhetoric. Then it was Public Security Minister Meng Jianzhu to visit Pakstan.
Press reports seem to indicate that Beijing first wants to establish military bases in Pakistan, and then the Naval bases. There will be no public announcements on this. The process has already begun–hence the high decibel noise from Delhi. The Bharatis are already experiencing conniption fits because of the presence of the Chinese Engineers who are building dams and road near the Line of Control (LOC). A military base in GB would send them into a frenzy.
- “The Chinese presence in Gilgit-Baltistan and the northern areas of Pakistan is increasing steadily. There are many who are concerned about the fact that if there was to be hostility between India and Pakistan, what would be the complicity of the Chinese. Not only are they in the neighborhood, but the fact is that they are actually present and stationed along the LoC” Northern Army Commander Lieutenant General K T Parnaik.
- “Around 4,000 Chinese including troops of the People’s Liberation Army are present in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.” General V K Singh
While both China and Beijing vociferously denied the accusations, the fact remains that the Pakistan Army included Chinese troops in military exercises along the border with the Bharati states of Punjab and Rajisthan. The participation in August of the 101 Engineering Regiment of the PLA sent chills up the spines of Bharati military planners. That sent “Cold Start” up in hot smoke. The new “Pivot and Stroke” has now been nullified. There was a cacophony of noise from Delhi about a joint plan to confront Pakistan and China. The Bharati move to move Su-30s to Rajistan was a counter-move to the Pakistani-Chinese “exercise.” Henceforth Bharat must contend with the reality that Chinese troops that may be embedded in the Pakistani Army and vice a versa.
This is the main reason for the skip in the beat of the Pakistani soldiers, and this is the reason why Pakistan has been able to defy the US and NATO. The US can only sit and watch on the sidelines. Washington had the opportunity to build a strong bond with Pakistan. In 2001, the Pakistanis had forgotten the previous betrayal sin 1965, an 1971–and the US was very popular in Pakistan. The Bush and Obama Administration blew that equity and are now saddled with the results–an angry Pakistan.
There is ample evidence of China’s intentions about military bases in Pakistan:
Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie described Beijing’s strategy. “The core interests include anything related to sovereignty, stability and form of government. China is now pursuing socialism. If there is any attempt to reject this path, it will touch upon China’s core interests. Or, if there is any attempt to encourage any part of China to secede, that also touches upon China’s core interests related to our land, sea or air. Then, anything that is related to China’s national economic and social development also touches upon China’s core interests.The Chinese desire to have military bases in Pakistan is not a new one and has been discussed in the past”.
An article published on the official website of the , signaled that Beijing wanted to go the US way and set up military bases in overseas locations that would possibly include Pakistan. The obvious purpose would be to exert pressure on India as well as counter American influence in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The article stated:
The Chinese central government website (www.gov.cn) on January 28, 2010 saids the following:
“Setting up overseas military bases is not an idea we have to shun; on the contrary, it is our right. It is baseless to say that we will not set up any military bases in future because we have never sent troops abroad. As for the military aspect, we should be able to conduct a retaliatory attack within the country or at the neighboring area of our potential enemies. We should also be able to put pressure on the overseas interests of potential enemies. With further development, China will be in great demand of military protection”
There is no political party in Pakistan which opposes friendship with China or would oppose a Chinese presence in Pakistan. Pakistan would be amenable to allow Beijing to set up military bases in Pakistan, if China signed a defense pact with Islamabad. China has publicly stated that “an attack on Pakistan would be considered an attack on China”. This statement was not widely reported in the US, but the BBC and alternate media carried it widely. We did publish it also. http://rupeenews.com/2011/06/any-attack-on-pakistan-would-be-construed-as-an-attack-on-china-beijing/
China’s deepening strategic relationship (both economic, and military) with Pakistan is a story that started in the seventies when Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto facilitated Nixon to reach out to China and neutralized the USSR. From that point onwards, the days of the Soviet Union were numbered. Pakistan and China are setting up new oil pipelines, trade structures, railroads, naval bases, and military camps. It is obvious that these developments scare both Washington and Delhi. The fact that Pakistan is the gateway to Central Asia, and no other country can provide access to the “Tans”. Herman Cain may not know where “Ubeki-beki-beki-beki-stan-stan” is but the Pakistan Army and the ISI surely know where it is–that will the new border of a confederated AfPak (Afghanistan and Pakistan). The repercussions of presence of Chinese military bases in Pakistan are particularly stark for Delhi because both Beijing and Islamabad refuse to accept Bharat’s occupation of Kashmir. Bharat faced with a two-front war cannot pull another Siachin, and will be forced to withdraw from it and also from Occupied Kashmir.
As Delhi moves closer to Washington and spends gobs of money on toys from Washington, Beijing is doing its own preparation–building up ties with Nepal, Bangladesh, Lanka, Bhutan, Burma and Pakistan. Deploying troops near the Indo-Pak LoC Beijing is sending a signal to Delhi. If it messes in with China in the South China sea, or tries to build alliances with Vietnam, Japan and South Korea–China will play the South Tibet (Arunchal Pradesh) and Kashmir card against Delhi. The Sino-Pakistan nexus can squeeze Delhi and keep America out of the Pakistani theater.
So the Great Game continues. Stay tuned! Same place, same channel. Rupee News (http://www.rupeenews.com)
Sovreinity and foreign trops/bases.
Your article seems to be focussed to scare indian readers;if true as it appeares to have some merit, you are looking at more blood shed /political earth quakes in south asia.
Pakistan obviously is not a free/independent nation likes of india , bangladesh, nepal; it has foreign troops/bases according to your article; it is among the group with Germany, japan, south korea having foreign troops. Sovereignity thus is relative definition perhaps has been for long time.
I really feel sad reading your piece–it has a bad prognisis for entire south asia; YOUR dream is Pakisia/Gaznavid empiire or may be just your jounalistic wishfull thinking. I do wish for a revived old hindustan free of hindu/muslim bigotry/nationalism; this hindustan then may extend into into central asia as it did once. BUT having a deep feel of HINDU/MUSLIM mutual hatred i am very pessimistic abt my dream. I certainely can pray brother.
Very good topic with a lot of info. Good to know Pakistani military and lolli langri political leadership is still awake, at least where it matters most. Like Bhutto said we will eat grass but will build the atom bomb.
I think most most Pakistanis will eat grass even today to make the Ummah stronger. Great work. AN.
China can also play Nepalese card. Bharat is currently occupying a large territory of Nepal. The mountainous state of Uttarakhand and most of Himachal pardesh was part of Nepali Kingdom which the British occupied. Kingdom of Nepal shared a border with the Sikh empire. Nepali kingdom extended as far as Bangladesh. The British took 1/3 of their territory. The bhartis didn’t return their territories after the brits withdrawal. Sikkim was also under Nepal control when Bharat occupied Sikkim the Nepalis protested. Pakistan and china must help the nationalist Maoist so that we can again have a shared border with Nepal again.
An excellent article full of facts.
Nice article…this news (china bases in pak) surly shakle the head quarters of brahmans either in Parliment or militry acadmies..and alarming bells as after the failure of cold start doctrine..now may we asume dehli approches to pak for friendly relations/??
greta game , but pak is alooser
The great game is an ancient game.
You have covered the topic extremely well; It does frightens me as indian living far from mother india for some 45 yrs. IS history rpeating?
Yes, i believe so ;It does when pple dont learn and change.Based on caste based hindu society, system never had” HUMAN rughts/social justice” for all.Citizens are still NOT EQUAL in india. This had created many regions based on language and these regions themself ran on caste system with PANDIT JI on the top;STILL on the top. AS a result Budhism did succeed and one great KING Harsh Vardhana ( 7-8 th cent Ad)had controlled Pak+ Kashmir+ part of UP and Kannauj;HE had solid support of CHINA and controlled the GREAT TRADE ROUTES out of south asia. AND any power sitting on that tract will alwayes controll the rest . There are numerous example.
BUT chinese, had a deeper socio-cultural role in India’s cultural evolution; Burzhome culturs centers abt 15 of them in kashmir and GB area ( 2000 BC) are regarded as chinese and independent of southern Indus valley. In addition notheast of india/nepal/assam etc had great inflence of Tibeto-burmese/chinese lanuagage family –accepted by all linguists.
India, thus is heavily impacted by Chinese cultural system to begin with;Off course all the Aryan race bussiness is now cosidered as BOGUS,a biblical fraud. It is well accepted that Rice farming had started in south china abt 9000BC and the farmeers had expanded into west reaching Ganga/jumna area in abt 2000BC ( see my book).Thus rice farmer’s language etc is now part of indian culture.
The word GANGA, the holy ganges is CHINESE word meaning a river and its variation are Gong,KONG, YANG etc–( see by book and Dr Chatterji’s language book); ME KONG means mother river or GANGA MA. In tamil and bengali GONGA means a river.IT is NOT SKT.
In the current events, I think US has known this all along and AF-PAK of Holbrok had NO INDIAN role which had made indians very very angry; OBAMA’s solo trip was a balm and a powerful one since he bypassed pakistan.
HIstory is repeating as in entire south asia there is extensive violation of human rights–of hindus and muslims alike. Pakistan may appear in driver’s seat but is no different than india ( makes you angry- cannot help). YES, if pakistan can change and adopt an strict islam of prophet–SOCIALISM/equal rights/full social justice/compulsory same level education, things may change; India will change if the change comes from west–means pak . YOU guys have a real challenge. LEARN from CHINESE as islam’s prophet had said—will you ?. In sino=pak friendship pak has real chance. Hope it will learn this time.
Great!
By reading your article of the day, I enjoyed the most today. Some phrases were even tickling.
Yes, we welcome China. They can build bases wherever they want, it’ll be our pleasure.
We learn a lot from you –someday I will write about Hash Vardhana. Sorry you missed the Ahmed Hasan Dani book. He describes all this in detail–he has books only on Northern Areas of Gilgit Baltistan.
Its been a see saw–threats and blame and now kiss and make up.
and how is that?
All movements in Pakistan and Central Asia are motivated by one thought a combined Central Asia. Some want to achieve it with violence—I MU—others want to achieve it thorough political means–Hiz e Tahrir. The Jamaat e Islami and the JUI, and JUP all want it through parliaments. Even the evil doers were striving for it. The Pakistani government wants it through the ECO. It is a fact that all aspects of spectrum want it.
We just write about it.
If you want to read about Indian slumdog jealousy and hatred regarding pakistan, read this blog:
It is a blog by an indian living in Islamabad talking about how filthy and dirty it is compared to perfect India!
http://indiansinpakistan.blogspot.com/
Hindustan is full of intelligent people (we are told) so why do they antagonize their neighbors to the point that they go willingly into the arms of People’s republic of china?
I think the burden of historic servitude weighs too heavily on their psyche. They are unable to forge peaceful relations/compromises with their neighbors.
News Report in ‘The Nation’ (of all the newspapers!!)
———————————–
No military bases abroad, says China
Published: October 27, 2011
BEIJING (APP) – China on Wednesday categorically denied that it had bases abroad. “China has no military bases abroad,” Foreign Ministry Spokeswomen Jiang Yu said in reply to a question the print media report published in Pakistan.
Yu, however, said the Military Department of China could be contacted for the question. In reply to another question, the spokeswoman said that China and Pakistan were comprehensive strategic partners having broad cooperation.
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/27-Oct-2011/No-military-bases-abroad–says-China
A News Report from may 24, (again from the ‘The Nation’)
China unaware of Gwadar Port proposal
Published: May 25, 2011
BEIJING (AFP) – China’s foreign ministry said Tuesday it was unaware of a request by Pakistan to Beijing for help in building a naval base at Gwadar, strategically located on the Arabian Sea.
Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar, who accompanied Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on a visit to China last week, said Saturday the proposal had been made during the trip, which highlighted the neighbours’ close ties.
“I haven’t heard of this project. As far as I know this subject was not brought up during the visit last week” by Gilani, Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told reporters. “China and Pakistan are friendly neighbours and engage in extensive cooperation across the board. Over the years, China has provided assistance to Pakistan within our capacity,” she added.
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/25-May-2011/China-unaware-of-Gwadar-Port-proposal
I did get his book finally from lahore. Have scanned it. He seem to be basically an aryanist. Being a graduate from Benaras hindu univ this is not unexpected.
@ Dr abdul jamil khan: Your statement:
“Pakistan obviously is not a free/independent nation likes of india”, is not correct.
Israel firm to start operations in India with Hyderabad base
PTI Jul 12, 2009, 07.16pm IST
HYDERABAD: Israel-based Makhteshim-Agan, which deals in crop protection products, will commence activities in India with a base in Hyderabad.
The company has selected Andhra Pradesh as its operating hub and a high-profile team will meet Chief Minister Y S Rajasekhara Reddy tomorrow in this regard, the Chief Minister’s Office said in a release on Sunday.
The company is contemplating to invest Rs 450 crore in the coming years, generating direct and indirect employment for over 2,000 people, it said.
The crop protection products is a cover to smoke screen real objectives. Why would Israel help India in crop protection, when they have planned to exterminate 80 % of world population.
U N O stated plan of 80 % population reduction.
Tedd Turner called people as useless eaters and feeders. 80 % of useless eaters and feeders needs to be exterminated.
Piss Phillip ( Royalty consort) wants to come back as a virus to kill majority of people.
Dr. Eric Bionca has similar objectives.
Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age to produce the sorts of Character the Authority consider desirable….Bertrand Russel..The impact of science on Society, 1953.
The remaining humans would be fed with such genetic modified food to produce the characters that are obedient to authorities.
So, either the Iaraelis are in India to kill its people or to help India against Pakistan or both.
Industrial wastes laden with heavy metal and other dangerous materials are being used in fertilizers and spread over farmland. The process, which is legal, saves dirty Industries the high cost of disposing of Hazardous wastes.
If Israeli are in India for this reasons, say Bye to Indian useless eaters and feeders. India is in more danger on accounts of it providing a base to Israel than Pakistan. As Pakistan is well aware of the game plan.
Your last statement:
“BUT having a deep feel of HINDU/MUSLIM mutual hatred i am very pessimistic abt my dream. I certainely can pray brother”.
I am afraid your dream will stay a dream. Since the non-Muslims have created a hole in the barrier (D N A) and creating ‘things’ by mutation, thus passing the Red Lines, their punishment is but at the Horizon by the Creator of Universe. Muslim armies would be used by the Rabbul-Aalamin to punish the violators for defying the laws of nature.
Assalamu-Elekum
Hello, a message for editor, i’m Shahnawaz Kashmiri… But to you i’m appearing as Ancient Zain using his email ID… Actually when i opened your website & wanted to comment i found this name(ancient zain) & e-mail ID already written in their respective spaces. I dont know how it happened.
So this can be used to cheat you by using fake identity & you can’t even notice it. I think name & email of Dr abdul jamil khan is being misused in the same way, as the comments he made above have bharathi bad smell.
Harsh Vardhana was a too bit raja, he never occupied any part of Pakistan/Kashmir. Dr Dani does not mention anything about him. In fact Arab sources mention kingdoms of bharat were vassals of Sind Kingdom which was the richest of all at that time.
HSUAN TSANG who visited South Asia mentions Harsh Vardhana was the ruler of central and eastern part of subcontinent. He further says rulers of Punjab and Multan were tributary to Taki kingdom which extended from Indus to river Beas.
The hindus have no history, All their empire gupta or maurya is fake or myth. We know Harsh Vardhana from Arab sources, Saad bin abi waqas was sent as an ambassador to Harsha’s kingdom. Arab sources mention ruler of kanauj was hostile to Muslims.
It must also be mentioned people of bharat are not the real hindus, The real hindus are those who followed Vedas, who denounced idol worshipping, In Vedas it is written the name of Prophet Muhammad as Ahmed. The real hindus who lived alongside Indus and were monotheists converted when Islam came to Indus valley and readily accepted the religion.
Idol worshipping is a Dravidian religion, There was no such religion as Hinduism before brits created in 1830, there is also no such term as Santana dharma in ancient Arab sources or foreign sources.
The Dravidians have no history; they have invented their own history to impress the world how great miserly bhartis are.
This is what Alberuni has to say about the great “Indian” empires of Maurya and Gupta empire:
The Hindu historians do not care about the historical sequence of incidents. They are careless in producing date-wise chronological order of historical evidences. Whenever they are forced to produce evidences they become confused and do not know what to say. Then they start telling the stories (MBD History BA-II, KU,p. 39.)
This clearly means the first historian of hindus is Alberuni, The bharti filth has stolen the history of Pakistan and adopted the culture of central Asian Muslims. These bhangis used to eat grass until Muslims arrived in bharat. Muslims brought shalwar kamiz, palaw, kebab and nehari to bharat. Much of Hindustani music has Muslim roots, Gazal were muslims creation, and tabla was creation of Amir Khusrau. Hindus have given nothing except filth to the world. Much of Arab science and mathematician were influenced by ancient Pakistani textbook, When Arabs invaded sindh, Pakistani mathematicians and scientists were invited to caliphs where their Sanskrit text were converted to Arabic, Hindu–Arabic numeral system is also Pakistani creation, Chess is also a Pakistani creation, The chacha dynasty of sindh is credited with invention of chess which the filthy low life bhartis claim they invented, When Arabs invaded sindh they introduced chess to places as far as Spain. Ancient Pakistan played a major part in making Arabs superpower. The Sindhi Sailors were world famous due to their skills in navigation.
Bharat has contributed nothing to the world and neither has it ever invaded Pakistan. It is insignificant in world’s history
This is what Dr. Gustav le Bon in ‘Les Civilisations de L’Inde’ (translated by S.A. Bilgrami) says.
“There does not exist a history of ancient India. Their books contain no historical data whatever, except for a few religious books in which historical information is buried under a heap of parables and folk-lore, and their buildings and other monuments also do nothing to fill the void for the oldest among them do not go beyond the third century B.C. To discover facts about India of the ancient times is as difficult a task as the discovery of the island of Atlantis, which, according to Plato, was destroyed due to the changes of the earth… The historical phase of India began with the Muslim invasion. Muslims were India’s first historians.”
http://insaf.pk/News/tabid/60/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/8227/Imran-Khan-to-leave-for-4-day-visit-to-China-on-31st-October.aspx
Significant development ? :)
Please write something about this too.!
@ akhbar: Here we go again, the same imposter using my name. Could you tackle this animal worshiper. Thanks.
Assalamu-Elekum
The only way to stop this is to force you guys to register–if you are willing to do that I can stop all free comments and you will have to register–else you can identify fake posts and we can delete them.
It is obvious that our site has been targeted.
I wonder the motive behind this article. Is this a show of Pakistani pride? Allowing foreigners to set up military bases, military infrastructure isn’t this the repeat of the same mistakes again? well this time it’s China. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto initiated the policy to train tribals against Soviets and today Pakistan is paying price for it with blood. Pakistan never learned from past mistakes and History will certainly record such act of spineless leaders and also the clowns employed to glorify them.
http://muhammadinhinduism.tripod.com/id6.html
wrong translation by Dr. Zakir Naik.
Before you quote please atleast ensure if the person made any sense.
Any country should feel ashamed and emasculated if they allow another country’s army to be on their soil. How demeaning is it for the brave brown martial race, it has to stoop this low that they need yellow soldiers to fight their battles.
On contrary, you sing songs and praises about it, there is something sadly missing in your concept of honour.
I agree to be registered. My vote for “No free comments”.
Pakistan is a country with great geostrategic location and India has a great market economy question is who needs what more.
New wars will be based on urban warfare in cities like in tripoli Cairo .
We Indians are happy Pakistan and Afghanistan exists and controls ungovernable tribals .
Comparatively we Indians are easy to rule . Naxalites are political issues and Kashmiri freedom fighters thanks to musharaf have been defused and infiltrated.since he also had “indian blood” in him.
MFN will destroy Small scale Pakistani industry but rich will get richer in pakistan .Pakistan won’t be able to stop cultural onslaught from India .more chances of fundamentalists takin over Pakistan and thus US forcing UN to cap Pakistani nuclear weapons
Nuclear war will remove Asia from world map so won’t happen
@ Akhbar Navees: I am concerned about how this person got my email address. By chance I noticed the fraudulent comment that was waiting for moderation. If the person was only using Abdallah Jan to comment, I should not had got waiting for moderation narrative in my computer. That suggests the person has my email address as well. How?…I do not know, perhaps could enlighten me.
I do know soon the authorities will clamp down all websites they do not like or toe their line of falls-hood. Zriel and Animal kingdom is working together in this capacity.
For the time being I will take a leave and if you receive any comments from Abdallah Jan, please delete it.
If I do comment, it will be from different name and email address. You will recognize my off the box character.
Assalamu-Elekum
Dear Ancient Zain,
You are misquoting Alberuni abt india.NONE knew abt maurias or Harshwardhan till chinese reports were discovered late in 18th cent and british got into the act of making up Biblical aryo-hindu nationalism to bring down Moghal india. It is true that there is no history of india and there was no DRAVIDIAN race either as all these labels are british brand names.
Yes history of hindus is loaded with mythical magic as is the judeo-christian racism. But hinduism as said by me ( see ch 4,5 of my book) had evolved as waves of humans migrated out of africa VIA mideast bringing every thing including serpent, idol,phallus, goddess etc worships;YOU see all these well documented in mideast. Mono theism of islam is a real modern phenonmenon, that did away the latter forms ( even jews had phallus worship),and christians are still polytheists. Off course here one should note that so called ” biblical abrahamism” with its prophets, Moses, soloman etc is not regarded as Historic in the west–but pure myth; SO are hindu prophets. Thus both hindus and judeo-christianian nationalist had/have tough time to explain out all that hokus pokus.
Thus hinduism has all those myths collected from man’s oldest history in africa/mideast–from hunting gathering stage to farming plus some regional priestcraft.
Please check your notes abt Harshwardhan of pak area, follower of Mahayana ( greater venicle) budhism. East india had Hina yana type.Kalhan a kshmiri poet wrote ” harshchrita” but much later.
MR zain and others pride of pakistani nationalism with ancient sience/math discovered by arabs. BUT since abt 100 yrs or so it is firmly established that “All sciences/math/astronomy.religious ideas” evolved in mideast and dispersed between 10,000 bC to 300BC to all over the world but was lost. But by decihperment of egyptian/mideast cunnieform in 19 th century the “REAL TRUTH” has become well established. MAN”s history is one single thread and new labels, hindu,greek,jewish, islamic sciences etc are just priestly fraud/politics.
Salam to All;
Nice article, I have heard the news (Chinese bases) in Pakistan few days ago and questions raised about it from the authorities but authorities denied it, though it was not a complete and clear denial but still no clear answer . And do you think that china will open bases in Pakistan and America will allow it and won’t do anything as they are sitting on our head. On the other hand it is in the news that there is a deal confirmed between USA and Pakistan on the future of Afghanistan, and at the same time USA is putting up there forces in Afghanistan alongside Pakistani border, is it that they have any planes to attack Pakistan if there negotiations with Taliban or Haqani faction failed. Because if negotiations failed then they have no other way except to show that it is all due to Pakistan (axis of EVIL) and now we must have to attack so called (terrorist) inside Pakistani tribal belt.
Kindly give your opinion on it.
I also was concerned about the procedure.
Free posts should be restricted. And only a registered member could comment. But it has it’s consequences that could affect on site’s rating.
Or.
Is it possible that you allow free posts with the recognition of IP address? As for first time visiters often have very much to so say because of the way the “content” we offer.
Or.
Some times a visiter uses diffrent computer so the IP address would also be diffirent. What about a procedure that allows all readers to comment and a mail be sent to the given email address after having commented. Thus a real poster would be approached and aknowledged.
Just brainstorming. Business procedures has been my favorite subject.
Response to Dr Jamil
I am very sad to read a revival of Hindu/ Muslim India. Pakistan should have been created long time ago. If you want to follow the path of Akbar and creat a new religion please covert to Hinduisam do not preach this to us. We are having troubles now but we will come out of it.
Jeech:
There are only two real options
1) Allow comments only to registered users–and many of our regular users don’t register…not sure why.
2) Leave it open, and get inundated with spam and abuse.
If all of you register, we will restrict it and eliminate/reduce fake users
Your news and views are dated.
Pakistan does not need permission of US on Chinese bases. The US is moving out of Afghanistan, and that is the reality.
Chinese bases in Pakistan would help counterbalance Bharat and the US.
I see your IP and email address. Do you not see it?
Bharat has ten times the number of tribals that Pakistan has–in fact Pakistani tribals rich, affluent and armed–and they hate Bharat
Dont worry MFN has a list of only a dozen items–and if Imran Khan wins 40 seats or more, consider it history again.
Haxals control 40% of Bharat…it ain’t going away.
800,000 Bharati soldiers occuppying Kashmir–and you think it is a “political problem”. No power on earth has been able to occupy a population.
If all our major players agree–we will shut of “free comments” right away
We have periodically shut of free comments, but our regular readers vanish
There is a price for freedom. Pakistan destroyed the USSR!
There is a price for liberty. The US is bankrupt and moving out of Afghanistan in defeat
Bharat has always been on the wrong side of history–first supporting the Soivet invasion, and now the US one–all for a few paltry dollars.
I wrote it–and lost the article–it accidentally got erased…will write again.
The 10,000 at Minar e Pakistan was impressive. The Big Mo is on his side
Very very old news–a lot of water has flown down the Indus since then!
Beijing is not going to publicly acknowledge the bases—
Our article is dated October 2011, fully six months after your quote.
In fact our article discusses military bases!!
Wow! The Chinese Foreign Ministry responds to our article–
Inability to read Englsh is a serious handicap
BEIJING (APP) – China on Wednesday categorically denied that it had bases abroad. “China has no military bases abroad,” Foreign Ministry Spokeswomen Jiang Yu said in reply to a question the print media report published in Pakistan.
Yu, however, said the Military Department of China could be contacted for the question. In reply to another question, the spokeswoman said that China and Pakistan were comprehensive strategic partners having broad cooperation.
“China has no military bases abroad” is a correct statement. Our article was about future plans, and the news items remains non-committal about it.
It will be my pleasure to get registerd here.
In my case too some one commented about f1 race
Dear Kalimuddin sahab,
Sorry, it seems i hurt your feeling; u r right that you have aleeady a lot of trouble. My mail is not preachings, but a wish full desire of a physcian,who sees INSAN in hindu and MUSALMAN. Regret i nevertheless, as i did hurt the feeling of an insaan.
Chinese great diplomacy,
They are right that they have no bases in foreign terrirory. Notheren pak area ” GB/ladakh/Tibet” etc are considerd as ” Non foreign” OR chinese.
Where did you get that from–the chandoo khana news called “temple indoctrination”? LOL
@Gandhara,
Is it really that horrible when the Chinese troops hasn’t yet there on Pakistani soil? The UN and the international community including India, have supported and even encouraged the countries having troops overseas. The most independent nations known on the earth have foreign bases allowed on their soil. It’s matter of mutual relations not any myth of independence. We all are interdependant instead.
We share not only our borders with China but history too. One cannot deny that the most practiced religion in China is Budhism; the religion that Indus valley gave birth of.
As for racial affairs is concern, Pakistan is perhaps the most diversicified nation that a small part of land ever had. We are at the hub of Chinese, Indian, Persian and even African ethnic spectrum. Thanks
@Bijon shah,
Our ancestors migrated from Indore, India during the partician of British held India. They left many of their tribal members in India because some of them waited for peace time to get their dream land Pakistan. Many, who or their incestors supported the making of Pakistan still live in India. And you know how many.
No wonder India has threats from unpredictable frontiers.
THE CHINESE NORTH:
From Gilgit/Baltitistan,Ladakh,through Kangra hill,china peaks of Nainital/up to east end Nepal Sikkim,bhutan,,etc –northeren edge of South asia, pple loook look like chinese unlike Caucashoid like akhbar navees and likes of him. THEY are called PAHARI/mountain folks in urdu. There languages are mixture, they eat ant thing that moves, makes blood cakes of cows blood ( have some friends) a chinese survival strategy,
You read abt 15 Chinese ancient centrers Barzhom and then Harsh vardhana. Kashmir ant its north is now under 3 pak,india and china.CHINA has the great silk road–a chinese high way.
Chinese soldiers then in those areas are on chinese territory but under pak’s controll.IT is same as they claim Arunchal pardesh etc as chinese. WE will see a lot more action in future.
Dr. Sahib,
Do you call the existence of Sayyidina Ibrahim (AS), Musa (AS) a myth?
A director question to you and it requires a simple direct answer.
Emasculation is stationing 800,000 rapists sorry Dravidian soldiers in Kashmir to supress the rights and liberty of unarmed Kashmiri men, women and children.
Demeaning is the attrocities you commit in Kashmir and then have the audacity to question others.
Pathetic are your comical responses whcih is nothing but sour grapes. Chin and The Indus Valley have had a relationship since time immorial long long before your kind crawled from under a rock in the jungles along the Ganges plains.
Pahari is not what you describe but the PUnjabis north of Islamabad living in the mountains–beyond the Potohar. They eat only halal.
Dear Alansarul haq sahab.
All the biblical prophets, Moses, Abraham,Solomon, David etc have no historical existence. Bibical chronology is now well accepted as ” political raciam” and priestly fraud.
Qoran, has NEVER provided the historic chronolgy of any one these. The idea of ABRAHAMIC MONOTHEISM is my basic belief but if ABRAMAM really existed as person has never been proven so far and I accept this latest history untill some thing appeares later. QORAN is the greatest book of divine wisdom but is NOT a BOOK of history. Hope you will take this as ” DIRECT ANSWER”.
AoA Dr. Jamil Sb.,
I am not as much educated as you or Brother Ansarul Haq – but your view were also shocking for me as other readers.
My question is if you take certain aspects of Quran that modern science can prove then would you be able to believe in Allah Karim, or Angels or heavens or Day of Judgement?
This builds the understanding that you would not accept “Dhulqarnain” or “Ashab-e-Kahaf” or countless other things which are mentioned in Quran as a historical reference to muslims by Allah Karim.
I am curious to know. Please advise.
regards
Dear Editors,
Apologies – my comment and question has nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Please let it be there for the time being for Dr. Jamil Sb., to see and respond to it.
Thanks in advance.
Luke 3:34; Judah was the son of Jacob. Jacob was the son of Isaac. Isaac was the son of Abraham. Abraham was the son of Terah. Terah was the son of Nahor….it goes back to Adam–but spans only 10,000 years.
The Quran mention 124,000 prophets, and then names a few of them. The Bible lists them chronologically which if taken as a life-span, goes back only 10,000 year–a physical impossibility–because man has been around for a lot longer than 10,000 years.
Hi Dr abdul jamil khan Sahib,
but i don’t agree to all what you wrote, why you always say that everything has its origin in middle east, Whats you fascination with those desert nomads mid east people, why do you always have to give credit of everything that has originated in the world up till now to those people.
Mono theism of islam is a real modern phenonmenon?
Islam is the world’s oldest religion in the world, it was just corrupted as the time passed, that is why god sent 100,000 messengers to return the religion to its original form and Prophet Muhammad was his last messenger. Prophet adam and Ibrahim were also monotheists. Now i don’t have justify how old islam is or not, because most of you people already know that but people deliberately try to hide the truth
Hinduism is also actually part islam and partly satanic. and has been corrupted by pundits, Hindu god brahma is actually prohet Ibrahim, another of hindu god saraswati comes from sarah (wife of prohet Ibrahim), Kali, ugly hideous looking gods such as kali etc who are always angry like drinking the blood of people is Dajjals, Hinduism is a satanic cult, It is half corrupted islam and half satanic cult, As i said hindus who worshipped Vedas already converted centuries ago, In Vedas and Upanishads is written a ruler will come and destroy the dajjal(Kali), thankfully Pakistan would do his job before that
And don’t call me a mullah after this, as i have not even been to a mosque in 5 years, but then i should also not be preaching others about islam which i am not, Islam is the most secular religion in the world and Hinduism is the most violent and exteremist satanic religion (actually cult). I am just giving info nothing else
I read your book from google book, its the only book you get when you search info about urdu on internet, I learned quite a lot from the book like the origin of word urdu and some other things also,. I may buy it when it gets little cheaper on amazon but not now.
Exactly, History of Jammu and Kashmir is the most ununderstood history in the world, J&K is purely a british creation.
The prime minsister of sikh empire ceded all the hilly region of his empire to the brits (which mostly consisted of Punjabis dialects speakers and Kashmiri) as part of an indemnity.
Jammu region of BOK (bharti occupied Kashmir) and Pakistani Jammu (present day districts of Bhimber Kotli Mirpur ) were part of Lahore suba during mughal empire, Now these jammu people identify themselves as Kashmiri, what a joke. They were made kashmiri by the prime minister of sikh empire.
Infact northern Punjab (Lahore, pindi) shares less of a history with southern Punjab or seraiki (Multani)region then they share with jammu/ mirpuri people. Some kashmiri wont like my comment, i myself have ancestral roots in Sri Nagar. Only Kashmir valley is the real Kashmir. Laddakh and Baltistan (who are known as Little Tibet) were most time tributaries of Tibet. Gilgit is also different from Kashmir. Infact Kashmir valley is the most smallest region area wise, only few thousand sq km, the real. The real value lies in Laddakh and Himachal Pardesh where all our rivers originate.
Scientific knowledge is limited and is based on evidence in hand. The limitations of senses and epistemological boundries trash the rest into garbage. This is the way science work. Since you have no evidence you can’t prove anything you rather would be called liar. This is all about science. Fierce enough?
The only way is patience and give yourself a benefit of doubt. All religions do that so do the beleivers.
Islamic beleif and faith are more than sceintific, themes like “ein ul yaqeen” and “haq ul yaqeen” can help sort out things ever thrown into garbage. Though it’s strogly based on evidence as science does, chances are things remains in garbage as well.
Dr. Sahib,
So what wisdom do you attribute to Qu’ran if you deny the existence of the patriach of the covenant Sayyidina Ibrahim (AS).
On the one hand you attribute wisdom to the Noble Kitab Al Haq but on the other you deny the existence of Deen-e-Ibrahim by denying his existence because you are missing his birth certificate. There is no historical record of anyone existing out of Babylon and Sumeria if you are to fine comb anyone or anything yet Historians have attributed much to the people opf this age through via great personalities. To compare the unchanged word of God and hikmath of Al Qu’ran with the questionable origins of Hindu ancestory is not fair. I agree Qu’ran is neither a book of science nor history but the mere mention of these great prophets from Adam (pbuh) is historic. To which timeline you associate them to is another case altogether this is completely not the case for Hindu mythology which is like grasping air in your hand.
Dear Hijazi/Akhbar bhai,
Hijazi ‘s question boils down to two tracks ” personal faith” and ” academic scholar ship”;I have some focuss on this in my work( urdu/hindi–history).This dichotomy is transparent for long time before and after Prophe;As hijazi asssumes ” depended on educational level.Thus the two tracks runs in most of us–lead to these questions–of Mr Hijazi
We do have ” lakum dinakum sura” to pacify prophet’s inner frustration–a great example.
Imagine, the knowledge/personal faiths of an illiterate farmer, MR Hijazi , Akhbar navees, Dr jamil , Mullah-mauddodi, and Dr Zakir naiks etc; It will be interesting to interview them and write some thing on your ” provocative idea”.What is my inner faith is known to me and Allah. Some hypocrites say something and believe something else–Allah knows though. THUS Bhai your are asking this question to a ” sinner” trying to balance two tracks. Thus my faith is very different than that of a Farmer and others and known to only Allah.
My Father used to say on the last judgment day in the examintion hall , each person will have different question paper;Allah is kind/merciful and he knows why DR Jamil/A farmer/Maududi/Hijazi have different ” unique/specific” ideas.
BUT one definitive thing i believe is ( after all limited reading) that Islam’s prophet is the only “HISTORICALLY” documented prophet and Qoran is the only book of Divine/moral guidance/salvation. IT is NOT a BOOK of science and history.IT however uses the contemporay language arabic and prevalent stories to teach us wisdom/moral lessons to be a “better human being”While BIBLE is a book of Family tree/Shajra of ” self glorified” pple proclaimed–SOLDIERS of god with time line of abt 6000 yrs ( not 10000 akhbar bhai).In the real written contemporary records/ history of Egypt/irag/syria, one cannot find ADAM,Noah,Moses, abraham,etc.Scholars,including jewish consider Bible as forgery based on ” mideast real history”–there is massive scholarship on this. As a student of science, i dont believe in Adam/eve creationism, semtic/non semitic racism,chosen races, Holy Genes of prophets and IMAMs, magic /miracles/myth, angels/demons/Jins,holy waters , Taweez,holy waters/saints/sadhus/ etc and i know that ALLAH knows why. Religius believes/personal faith is one great variable variable, Allah has maintained out of his wisdom.We call it diversity/plurality. WE need to respect this , a part of islamic faith.
The pedigree theory was used to discredit the prophethood–they said and still say “how could a child of a what they described as a slave-girl be a prophet”.
Muhammad (PBUH) challenged the lineage based racism which said no Arab could ever be a prophet–Sarah or Hager notwithstanding.
BIBLE fathered HUMAN RACISM.
Prior to abt 200BC, world was Raceless. The sumero-akkadian myths and Egyptian myth of creationism, flood,religious worships, holy trinity of egypt ( Isia.osiris, horus) had mothered almost all religious rituals/temple worships, charities, human rights, social justice. Written on ancient cunniforms,aramaic and hieriglyphs-papyrus were lost and/or later unreadible; but had been rendered in Greek and saved. Some guys put togather these words of mouth stories, in Babylon in their family tree–BIBLE was borne.Egyptian trinity and church rituals were imposed/adopted by Greeks into so called ” jesus” and christianity; According to William Durant the current ” christian worship” is a replica of egyptian religion with magic/holy water /sacraments etc. ( see egyptian religion/history). In babylon those biblical editors made up 3 sons of Noah–Highest ranked Shem ( sun) father of JEWS and Japeth father of Aryans/indo-euros HAD LOVED SNOW so-went to europe; HAM cursed by his father created ” Slave/blackk/ugly inferior” race–african,egyptians, canaan ( philistinini)–black hindus and chinese etc–all slaves–” to serve the kids of other brothers untill the end” ( pl look at Torah bible for detailes). Egypt was the greatest superpower(3000BC-500BC) and had penalized/arrested the trans jordan residents( who hated egyptians) and the same guys were later penalized/exiled by Assyrians- reasons:refusal to pay tribute/taxes.
SO all bad guys ended up as ” ham’s inferiors” and Assyrian king is called as MAD/Opressor; Egytian slave girl makes ismaelites only Half pure semite–blemished. RACISM was fahtered by biblical editors. BLUFF was rvealed after 1850s after decipherment of cunnieforms and papyrus of egypt.—NOW accepted by all scholars ( jewish/gentiles as ” REAL HISTORY” and roots of all religious ideas including HINDUISM .( extenvive trade had existed btw india and mideast).
NOW why Allah had to send another prophet is very clear ( look at my book for some details if you will). GOD’s children all equal, were exploited and divided in PURE/impure, by PRIESTs who made up FANTASTIC stories where ALLAH is Speaking to MAN in Person–Abraham/moses; Man is ready to sacrifice his son ( Human sacrifice was in practice all over) so was CIRCUMCISION-NOT ABRAHAMIC. GOD created all Languages but BIBLE had LIED that HEBREW was mother of all; HINDUs had lied that SKT was mother of all; HINDUS too had made up FANTASTIC stORIEs of CREATIONISM,RACISM and SKT divinity as mother of all.
GOD/ALLAH/KHUDA/BHAGWAN, perhaps was FED UP with lies and HUMAN EXPLOITATINS in his NAME. SO he had to have some justice. MOHAMMED has to seen in this context/contemporary stories. ISLAM is the only religion with no RACISM, PRIESt, DIVINE LANGUAGE,HOLY GENES and GENTIC SLAVES, NO high.NO LOW all same equal to him; deferent in their PIETY. ISLAM is the only religion why does not deny haven to non muslims while other religions deny salvation to non confirmist. FOR jews all gentiles/sinners will go to hell.CHristianity says the same.hindus have same position– after conversion you loose your cast status so will be reborne as inferior animal or untochable etc. ISLAM was/is a redically revolutionary system. THIS is the reason for many to become muslim.IT frees you from greatest exploiter of man ” PRIESTCRAFT”.
THese ideas had to be included in my book to down grade ” divine linguistic racism” of jews and Germans. Mideast is accepted cradle of hinduism as well–including their SKT.
AS said academic thinkers had alwayes challenged the mythical ideas; IBN khuldun ( 14th cent), father of modern history as science; had confronted biblical black Ham as Fabrication; HE divided the earth in north/south and sub climatic zones and said the HUMAN’s adaptation to north creates whitness and in south skin becomes darker–Bible is wrong. I hope mr hijazi will look at this long comments. ABRAHIMISM is root of Islamic idea but that is not entire islam. And also Abraham may have have been an small unknown chietain of a family; unworthy of political notice–so unknown in the records–who knows except Allah.
Dr. Sahib,
I enjoyed reading your post however it too is speculative and remains a hypothesis. I agree racism and superior race was fund in Biblea precipitation of Egyptian and Babylonian Cult.
I totally agree.
Sayyidina Abraham (pbuh) was a nomad like the people of his time and it said he travelled great and far to teach the truth and thus his ideas were very radical and new. I am sure you would agree he would have stood out in history. I was not aware that the covenant of flesh was practiced before the time of Abraham (pbuh) prophethood. Never the less it was prescribed by Sayyidina Muhammad who followed the same Deen as his forefather Abraham (pbuh) and thus upheld the very same covenant as we ALL do today.
Would you please proofread your articles properly???
Spelling and other issues aside, you have this sentence that goes: “China has publicly stated that “an attack on Pakistan would be considered an attack on Pakistan”.
Yep, it wuz really reported in the right places except that it said “China” at the end, not “Pakistan”.
Unless he really said it like that, like, um, as if he had said, “an attack on Andorra would be considered an attack on Andorra.”
Hello???
Anybody on duty???
“Prior to 200BC, the world was raceless”?
You’ve lost me there: no Zulus, Ibo, Inuit, Pequots, Gauls, Angles, Khmer, Irkuts, Han or Saxons, just to name a handful?
Uh huh…
The Sumero-Akkadians and Egyptians mothered “almost all” the myths? Um, none of the above had any imagination or traditions of their own?
Uh huh.
Egypt was the “greatest superpower” from 5000 to 300 BC? In the world? Or in the Mediterranean?
Islam is the only religion with no racial prejudice? Um how many have you personally studied in any real depth directly from their teachers and not your local imams and ulemas?
Islam has undeniable virtues and seems a valid path of spiritual development, but to claim a monopoly on such a path without having studied directly at source more spiritual belief systems than any one human being can manage within a single lifetime, well, it’s simply arrogant.
Mr Borges,
Yes, there was no SEMTIC,Japhetic,Hametic labels,before BIBLICAL editors invented a fantastica. There were hittites,assyrians,elamites etc fighting/creating threir “real history” –not myths.
And Pristine islam of Qoran is free from Biblical racism/biblical genealogy; Infact islam perhaps came to discredit all this racial fabrications and also entrenched ” PRIESCRAFT” of jews.christians,hindus, and pagans. This was Mohammad’s Islam.
But islam after prophet’s demise, did undergo REGRESSION and we find , priest disguised as Imaams, Mullahs, Ayatullahs ,and some sufis as well. After his demise, they even invented his family tree incorporating Biblical races. QORAN has no family tree of prophet.
Mr Borges, pl read Egyptian history, and you will find its domination all over mideast and greek isles. Christian trinity is well known replica of ISIS, Horus,Osiris. OLDEST written history of every faculty of man is from Egyptian papyri. NO historian doubts it.
LOOK at their word RA ( lord/god) mutating in every language; Ra-mah ( mah a sumerisn prefix) is hindu god, Rab,rabbi, robert,etc.There are many many such examples. Biblical faithfulls has been playing a coverup game for a long time–laity/common folks still blindly believe in myth/magic/miracles.
Alansaralhaq sahab,
Yes, righteousness and monotheism attributed to Abraham is part our belief-NO question; But historical abraham is a myth.
There is a massive scholar ship of this and they are no more theories; now accepted as real academic history.
Dear Ancient Zain sahab,
Thanks for scanning my book; you can buy it for abt 20 $ from Amazon or barne noble;go for used soft cover –all are new.
Bhai my focuss is real history of each and every thing–an academic pursuit that does nnot dilute my personal faith.
Pl exuse me if i have hurt your feeling; i dont think i equate you with Mullahism. But there are literalists in every religion. They still feel that JINNs, angels, myth,miracles do exist becuse Qoran mentions them. These are faithfull/literalist–part of cultural mosaic–;islam has its share too.
Dr. Sahib,
I owe you an apology, I was reading snippets of your discussion with Shanwaz / Zain and misunderstood.
I stand corrected on what I attributed as to what you meant.
Sincerest apologies. In fact Akhbar bhai remove my post they dont sit well on here as I wish to retract all earlier responses to Dr. Sahib.
Very interesting, I must read your book.
Qu’ran mentions the Jin and surely we must believe.
The Shayateen Jin makes so much more sense than the fallen Angel who somehow miraculously over writes AllahA zuwajjal command of sole worship to become Shayateen.
Believe in Janaah, Angels the hereafter is an important part of our belief Dr. Sahib from the Qu’ran.
JIN,GHOSTs,DEMONS–the mythical/supernatural creatures.
Dear Alansarulhaq sahab,
Your very relevant question ” why they are in Qoran,” Do you cease to be muslim if dont believe in them; these questions have the same context–how come you dont believe in adam/eve. abraham/moses etc.
FOR a student of science the compulsion must remain ” WHY, when,how and why now” of every item in human affairs. As said elsewhere that these questions are discussed by pple who can be branded as ” non muslim-heritics”, by many others who would never ask such question. NOW here in usa, my 2 grandsons 8 and 7 say that there is no such thing as ” Magic”–is all trick;They are 100% correct. But pple in 2000 BC believed them to be true and currently abt 90 % ( my guess) have faith in magic, Jaadu.toona, Jhar/phook/, evil eye etc–and this is big bussiness.I dont believe in it. But if one stays with why,how,when questions, things become clear if one reads in depth abt any thing. Will give you just few examples.
– Most ancient creation myths: of egypt/mesopotamia ( bible copied these later) did have angels, demons, ghost etc.
– Medical sciences written in abt 2000 BC reveals. Jins,demons etc as cusative agents for diseases, eplilesy, typhoid,jandice etc.
Shamans/priests were used to ttreat them. Medical advances have shown that they were wrong. BUt still some 90% pple in pakistan and even arab lands and even in west still have that belief– exorcism/holy water are still in practice–Part of Christian faith. I treat them as stupid or placebo.
– Evil eye–NAZAR Lagna; Still very popular why? PPle had thought ( upto 9th century)that people see things because eyes throws lights to object-ie science of vision. SO some had power to throw ” evil lights” to hurt others;And you still have big bussinees on this every where even though it is plain stupid. Eyes as we know does not generate light but light from an object enters it and makes an image–like a camera. THIS discevery of Ibn Hatham had discredited few 1000s yrs old belief; He is regarded as father of modern optometry etc-led to discovery of lenses camera, telescope etc. PPLe however have persisted in ” NAZAR utarney ki bussiness”.
Thus belief of educated/informed will be different that the others–in every matter including religous myths; Said by Alberuni.
I personally dont believe in JIN/angel/Satan etc though in Qoran. I try to understand why they are in Qoran; Becuase the pple around 7th century did have these believes.Same as pple were also brainwashed by biblle/torah re Abraham, moses etc. I believe in messages attrubuted to them but NOT in them as HIOSTORICAL persons.
Sorry, i had to elaborate on these –creates a long answer.