Where are the Good Dutch? by Moin Ansari
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alt="" />| RUPEE NEWS | March 22nd, 2008 | Moin Ansari | ???? ??????? | ????? ????? | The world sees Eurotrash in the parliament of the Netherlands. Where are the Good Dutch? The only vision of the the Dutch that is seen by the world are images of Ayan Hirshi and that of Mr. Geert Wilders. The world does not see the good Dutch.
Who is responsible for this horrible image of the Dutch? Well, the Dutch themselves! Their history depicts a picture of Holland that surely cannot be written as a testimony of tolerance and harmony. The Dutch right will keep provoking the Muslims by throwing up figures like Ms. Hirsi, Mr. WIlders and they will continue their search for Islamophobic causes. When there are no issues, they will try to provoke the global Muslim diaspora by manufacturing incidents and hoping that some nut somewhere will take unwarranted and illegal action. The Dutch right will they say “we we told you so”.
What is missing in this scenario? The Good Dutch are missing. Silence was acceptance of Nazi atrocities. Silence today is acceptance of Gerrt Wilders and other Islamphobes.
What does the world and Muslims in general expect from the good Dutch? Muslims all over the planet don’t see the good Dutch. What does the world intellectuals and the Muslim intelligentsia expect from the good Dutch? The Muslim intellectuals who want to build bridges of harmony expect the Dutch to come out in huge numbers and repudiate the Geert Wilders of Dutch society. Those Dutch who do not like what is going on in the Netherlands must come force the government to elect mainstream Muslims to parliament, and appoint mainstream Muslims to cabinet positions. Obviously the Good Dutch are either non-existent or too weak to counteract the Neo-Nazis in and around Amsterdam.
Until and unless concrete steps are taken by Dutch society, the question remains. Where are the good Dutch? They are unwilling or unable to get themselves heard. They are unable or unwilling to organize themselves…therefore they do not exist!
PREFACE AND EDITOR’S NOTES: These notes expose the hollowness of “Freedom of Expression” in Hollands
Waar zijn het Goede Nederlands?
We posted this blog on Dutch sites like (http://nieuwnieuws.nl/archives/tech/2008/03/fitnathemoviecom_terecht_offli.html). This article and all our artilces have been taken off all the Dutch boards. So much for Free speech! I guess Free Speech is allowed as long as you disparage Islam. What hypocracy! This article is has many graphics because it is meant for Duth and the Europeans who may not be proficient in English.
They stirred the pot for no reason at all
- Muslim response to the Dutch and Geert Wilders
- Muslims support SOIEs efforts to eliminate Islamic influences from Europe
- Celebrate Tulipomaniaagain. Muslims should send Tulips (Topi Wale) and Roses (Gul e Mohammadi) to Geert Wilders.
A decent majority cannot tolerate bigotry. It cannot feign ignorance. If the majority is quiet, it is guilty of intolerance.
If the majority sanctions bigtory, and racism under any banner, then the majority is complicit in mass hatred towards a vulnerable minority. Unnecessary provocation?
Civilized people all over the world are waiting for the Dutch to refute the nonsense perpetuated by the right wingers like Geert Wilders. This week we got an answer. A pathetic 1000 people showed up to condemn the right wing hijacking this miserable country.
Where are the rest? Muslim andLoving Holland. Open Letter to the Dutch and Geert. Mijn lieve Nederlandse Vriend/.
Where are the good Dutch? (Waar zijn het Goede Nederlands? )
The Jewish TV program producer, Harry deWinter’s, speech is also worth mentioning in this context. De Winter, who is one of the founders of a Jewish NGOnamed as Another Jewish Voice, compares the existing trend with the climate against Jews before WW2. The climate that has been shaped by Mr. Wildersis comparable with the rise of anti-Semitism in the 1930′s and Mr. Wilders would be accused of being anti-Semist if he had done the same against the Jews, according to the program maker. As said by deWinter, Jews should be those who understand Muslims best in this regard. Nermin Aydemir is Netherland representative for Journal of Turkish Weekly
Silence is acquiescence and the world awaits a Voltaire from the Netherlands? There is no Tom Paine in the Netherlands? There is no Sy Hersch in the land of the Tulips and the home of the Windmills?
The world today sees the Netherlands as bigots and racists. The world sees the Dutch as they are? It is up to the Dutch to answer that question.
The world knows the truth about the Dutch…and the “Good Dutch”…we are still looking.
Holland is one of the best examples of bigotry and hatred on the planet. The “Good Dutch” cannot support racism and bigotry based on Hatred. The Good Dutch would accept responsibility for historical wrongs and current misdeeds.
The Dutch Blood Diamond Trade is the worst example of horrible man’s inhumnity towards fellow man.
The Netherlands exported violence to the innocent across Africa and Asia. They killed 15 million of their own in WW1, and 55 million of their own in WW2. Now we hear them parrot “Mein Kemph” ideas in the comments. Hitler said the same things against the Jews, the gays, the gypsies, and the handicapped the most vulnerable sections of society (made vulnerable by systematic discrimination)
Justifying racial genocide, a violent Nazi past, a horrendous history of cruel colonialism in Indonesia and South Africa and systemic and institutionalized discrimination cannot be justified by what is going on societies that the Dutch destroyed and sucked for hundreds of years.
The Dutch totally destroyed the society in Indonesia and perpetuated one of the worst crimes of humanity in South Africa. The people of Asia and Africa REJECTED the Netherlands and its imposed rule. Then when the countries wanted independence the Dutch murdered millions of innocent Indonesians who did not want to be part of the “Dutch paradise”.
Today the Neo-Nazi movement in Holland is a lightning rod for bigots all over Europe.
There is something wrong within Ditch society and the societies surrounding it which continue to create monsters like Hitler and others. Every crackpot in the Europe that bases his ideology on hate Apatheid, Racism, Anti-Semtism and Islamphobia finds a good audience in the cesspool of degradation in Amsterdam and the vicinity.
The Dutch businesses import the poor of the poor to use and abuse them in Holland, and at the slightest excuse leave the immigrants to fend for themselves–now islated and far from home (which the Dutch destoryed for hundreds of years).
When Rupee News posted articles exposing all of this on Dutch Board–they were all censored and we were eventually banned…exposing the hollowness of the claim of freedom of speech.
Maybe there are none. Rupee News was looking for a few good Dutchmen. We are still looking!
“He wants to create the Mohammed cartoon affair all over again”
Comment from Laurent Chambon, a French sociologist who moved to the Netherlands 14 years ago and wrote a book about minorities in politics and the media:
Geert Wilders is a former member of the VVD; a liberal party that veered towards the far-right. He was thrown out of the party for “Islamophobia” and founded his own movement called the PVD(the Liberal Party), which has around ten seats in parliament.
Wildersis part of a gradual shift in Holland, where a far-right, nationalist and xenophobic stance has established itself. The former MP HirsiAli, originally form the Sudan, is from the same gang. She comes out with all sorts of polemic stuff, and then acts surprised when she receives threats.Wilderslikes to provoke people….. It’s only seven minutes long, but that doesn’t matter. It’s the event around it, and he’s very good at creating that. I’m not sure if his film will have a strong impact here because Dutch Muslims are used to his provocations – they won’t fall for them. His real target is foreigners. Perhaps he’s hoping for someone to attack him, just so he can play the martyr.
He wants to create the Mohammedcartoon affair all over again. But I don’t think Dutch society is like the Danish one. Holland is still a multicultural and tolerant country, unlike Denmark, which is much more closed.”
HISTORY OF BIGOTRY PERMEATS DUTCH SOCIETY?
Netherlands has a history of bigotry. The sanitized version of history taught to the Dutch children blames everything on the Nazis (not even “Germans”). This “ostrich history” does not inform the common Dutch that innocent Dutch citizens (who happened to be Jewish) were expelled from Amsterdam in the 15th century. Then again during the 2nd World War, the Dutch were very complicit in Nazi rounding up, deportation and transportation of Jews (shown in these pictures) to the Gas oven in Dachao etc.
Colonial atrocities in Indonesia and South Africa are also not taught to the Dutch children who grow up on the Disneyland version of historical events. Most Dutch do not read the Bible either, so they are unaware that Muslim scripture is very similar to Jewish and Christian scripture.
- Fitna here and the multiple response on this site
- Geert Wilders anti-Quranfilm. Silence will be the best response
- Dutch and Geert Wilders should ban these holy books too
- Europe: Muslim Integration and separatism lessons learned from the British Raj
- Send Tulips to Geert Wilders
- Muslims support SOIEs efforts to eliminate Islamic influences from Europe
- “Fitna” Rebuttal to Geert Wilders. Refuting the Dutch Nazis
DISCUSSION OF THE IMPACT OF WILDERS ON DUTCH SOCIETY
Chronicle of a film foretold: About ‘Fitna, the movie’by Nicolien den Boer and Michel Hoebink*22-03-2008
For months now, the Netherlands has been in the grip of the anti-Qur’an film …by politician Geert Wilders. The controversy is prompting more and more questions in other countries.
What exactly is going on in the Netherlands? Where has this Geert Wilders character sprung from all of a sudden? What do his fellow countrymen think of him? And if the Dutch government is so scared of this film, why don’t they simply ban it? Could it be that they actually support it?
Radio Netherlands Worldwide has produced its own short film about the issue in an effort to answer these questions. About ‘Fitnathe Movie’ takes a more in-depth look at aspects of Dutch society, such as freedom of speech, aspects that sometimes lead to confusion abroad. The film also seeks to put Geert Wilders himself in perspective.
Dutch opposition MP Geert Wilders Fitna
Even though no one yet knows exactly what Fitna is all about, Geert Wilders’ comments have given us a few clues. He has already said that he wants to show that the Qur’an is “a fascist book”. In a piece he submitted to Dutch daily newspaper de Volkskrant, he emphasised that he sees Islam as the problem, not Muslims. But he also says that Fitna is intended as a “final warning” to the West, which he believes is on the verge of giving up its freedoms without a fight.
Indonesians still celeberate fighting the cruel Dutchman. The current generation of Holland knows nothing about how they destroyed the great Indonesian civilization and sent millions to poverty for 200 years.
What inspires someone to make Geert type of statements? Where does his anger at Islam come from? The historical dimension to this story is often forgotten. For example, the fact that the arrival of large groups of immigrants – many of them Muslims from Turkey and Morocco – has rapidly turned the Netherlands into a multicultural society over the past 40 years. This rapid change has given rise to a considerable level of irritation and discontent among the Dutch, regardless of their reputation for tolerance.
Assimilation
Particularly since the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001, integration of the Muslim minority has become the most emotionally charged political issue in the Netherlands. With his right-wing Freedom Party, Geert Wilders represents the most extreme stance on this issue. He believes that Islamic culture tends towards violence andis therefore at odds with the democratic values of Dutch society. He does not want to let any more Muslims into the country and he wants the Muslims who already live here to renounce part of their own culture in order to assimilate into Dutch culture.
Geert Wilders has a relatively small support base among the Dutch population. At the last election, six percent of Dutch voters cast their ballot for him, giving him nine seats in the Netherlands’ 150-seat parliament. But his provocative statements have generated a massive amount of coverage in the media.
Freedom of speech
It is clear that the Dutch government is very concerned about Geert Wilders’ film. They remember all too well the uproar in the Islamic world caused by the publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad in the Danish press two years ago. For some time now, Dutch Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen has been at pains to point out to the rest of the world that Geert Wilders’ film far from represents the Dutch government’s position but at the same time that the freedom of speech enshrined in the Dutch constitution means that Geert Wildershas every right to release the film. At least until such times as a court determines otherwise.
The Dutch take great pride in their democratic freedoms, which they believe mean that disputes should be settled with arguments and not with repression and outright conflict. This pride can best be summed up in the words attributed to the French enlightenment philosopher Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!”
Charges
However, it is important to emphasise that even in the Netherlands, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute. Its boundaries are set by a ban on discriminating against others on the basis of race or faith and on incitement to violence. But it is up to the courts and not to the government to determine whether a film breaks the law. And such a ruling can only be made once the film has been shown. Dozens of charges have already been brought against Geert Wilders for discrimination and incitement to hatred and these are currently being considered by the courts. Depending on its content, GeertWilders’ film could also easily find itself the subject of legal scrutiny.
Geert Wildershas sparked an enormous amount of discussion in the Netherlands. For months now, it has been impossible to open a newspaper without being confronted with an article about the MP or people airing their opinions about him. Many in the Netherlands are totally opposed to his position. They think that he is slandering Dutch Muslims and is only making it more difficult for them to integrate by continually levelling accusations at them.
Others disagree with him but are still glad that he is around. They think that his provocative statements should be the starting point for a discussion between the native Dutch and Muslims in the Netherlands so that they can settle their differences.
Phantom film
Dutch Muslims have yet to enter into this debate in large numbers. But GeertWilders’ ‘phantom film’ has got Muslim organisations thinking about how they should respond when the film is released. The Landelijk Beraad Marokkanen- a national consultative body representing the Moroccan community – has already said that on the day of the film’s release they will open the doors to all of the Moroccan mosques in the country. The attitude of the Dutch Muslims can perhaps best be summed up in the words of the organisation’s chairman Mohammed Rabbae:
“When the film is released, we should conduct ourselves with dignity. If we get angry or even turn to violence, we will be doing exactly what Mr Wilders wants us to do.”
Wilders’ film has already triggered fury in the Muslim world. The Dutch government has distanced itself from his views, fearing a backlash against the country amongst Muslims similar to that against Denmark in 2006 after newspapers there published the blasphemous cartoons.
Pictures of the flower “Topi Wale” which depict “Allah” to all Muslims.
Muslims see Allah in the Tulip and Mohammad in the Rose.
THIS IS NOT A FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ISSUES.
But the West knows as well as we do that this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. There is something really rotten in the state of Denmark, as Shakespeare put it. In fact, this is not confined to Denmark. This sickness pervades the whole of Europe and the Western world. While there has always been deep-seated animosity and hatred against all things Islamic in the West, of late this is acquiring alarming proportions. More worryingly, these are not isolated incidents of some fanatics going berserk. There’s a clear method in the madness. From the Jyllands-Posten cartoon to the numerous books and movies targeting the Prophet, Islam, and the Holy Quran, just about everything we believe in seems to be fair game.
Apart from the historical Western doublespeak and double-dealing in the Middle East, it is the endless demonization of Islam and Muslims that is fuelling the clash that Samuel Huntington promised us. It’s about time the West got this message — loud and clear — from the Muslim states that Islam-bashing is JUST NOT ACCEPTABLE. Andthis should be done by going beyond those regulation OIC, UN and Arab League resolutions. It’s time for more meaningful andconcrete steps. Just stop doing business with countries like Denmark and the Netherlands. That will teach them the lesson they refuse to learn, hitting ‘em where it hurts the most. And there will be quick results — quicker than you could say Jyllands-Posten
Here is an apology from the Netherlands trying to justify why Wilders exist. No explanation was given why no major politician speaks up against Wilders and why he has not been tried under existing Dutch blasphemy laws.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBkDfrGfDCI
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBkDfrGfDCI]
THE MUSLIMS OF THE NETHERLANDS REACT
A weak protest or is it tokenism? Dutch protest against anti Islam film, 2110 PST, Sat., March 22, 08
AMSTERDAM: About one thousand people protested in central Amsterdam on Saturday against right-wing lawmaker Geert Wilders and the imminent release of his film expected to be against Islam.
Anti-racism protesters clad in winter clothing against the freezing cold and drizzling rain held placards that said “Enoughis enough” and “Stop the witch-hunt against Muslims”.
Pop and hip-hop groups entertained the crowd in between speeches by social groups.
“We can no longer remain silent. There is a climate of hate and fear in the Netherlands,” said spokesman Rene Danen fromanti-racism organisation Nederland Bekent Kleur (the Netherlands recognises colour differences), which had organised the protest.
There should be restrictions on what Wilders can say, saidRieke, a 61-year-old Amsterdam arts teacher who declined to give her last name.
It is a very bad example to people to let him say whatever he wants,” she said.
1300 brave Dutch citizens actually did speak up against bigotry in the Amesterdam.
- REFUTING THE MYTH TO DEMONIZE MUSLIMS:-Why did Muslims not condemn the violence
Why did Muslims not condemn the violence. - http://www.wildersisnotholland.com/
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alt="" />| RUPEE NEWS | March 22nd, 2008 | Moin Ansari | ???? ??????? | ????? ????? |
Maybe the good Dutch will show up when the good Muslims show up?
I don’t know.
Osama Bin Laden is calling for more violence against the European Union and the United States.
Al-Zawahiri is calling for more attacks against the United States by extremists … seeking martyrdom and paradise by blowing up Christian and Jewish women and children.
Where are the good Muslims, who hold Christianity “near and dear to” their hearts … why are they not standing up and saying … “not in the name of my religion!”
Many Westerners and Christians, such as myself, would be happy to live in peace with our Muslim brothers and sisters; to share an appreciation for each other’s cultures and beliefs … however, because of the Bin Ladens and Al-Zawahiris of the world, this will never happen …
As long as radical Islamic fundamentalists cut off the heads of Christian missionaries on national television, blow up innocent women and children in market places, and fly commercial airliners into busy office buildings killing innocent civilians …. and moderate, thinking Muslims remain silent … and there will be more Geert Wilders saying get them out of my country and with very good reason
http://rupeenews.com/2007/12/12/the-condemnation-blame-game-is-a-trap-sippenhaft-collective-guilt-is-a-war-crime-muslims-refuse-to-take-foster-parentage-of-the-morass-of-foreign-policy-failures-that-perpetuate-this-cycle/
What do the Dutch have to do with Bin Laden? You guys have everything to do with the Farmers war, South Africa, Boer wars, Apartheid, Indonesian colonialism, Nazi support, killing jews, and sending them to gas chambers. Last time we checked Muslims did not colonize Holland!
The last time we checked Mr. Bin Laden was not elected to any parliament. Last time we checked Mr. Bin Laden who was thrown out of Arabia was picked up by the CIA and trained to fight the USSR.
What did I or any of the 1.5 Billion Muslims have to do with the CIA vs. USSR fight which brought the scum of the earth to Aghanistan an fight the USSR.
Blaming all Muslims for the crimes of these CIA trained guys is bigotry at its best.
Sippenhauft of collective guilt is a war crime!
What business do Christian missionaries have in Iraq? What do we have to do with that?
If you blame all Muslims for all this nonsnse then you will get more of the same from the pepole the CIA trained.
Bring as many Geert WIlders as you want, Islam keeps on growing and is the fasstest growing religion in the world!…come to grips withat simple fact!
moinansari Says:
March 23, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Where are the good Dutch?
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/22/where-are-the-good-dutch/
————————————————————————–
Moinansari, i read your website. There are dutch flags with the nazi symbole on it. All the picture’s of Geert Wilders you changed it in a negative way. Then they put a picture of Italia people, with Nazi flags. Picture’s of Geert Wilders where he is a monkey. Than you say, the muslims will open all the doors of every Mosque in Holland.
I am a dutch man living in Holland. What do you know about Holland? Did you know there are 7% muslims in Holland, and that the 7% are 80% of them in the prisons? Did you know that Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn where murdered because they had an other opinion than the muslims? Did you know that there are neighbourhoods in our country where the police is too scared to come?
No? I thought so…
A dutch man that Loves Geert Wilders
Most honorable Frank:
Thank you for your comments.
What do 1.5 Billion Muslims have to do with a murderer or the criminals in Dutch jails.
Why do you offend millions of people? No civilized nation is with you. Your country is a pariah among countries. Keep it up, and it will begin impacting your paycheck too.
I have been to Holland when you were supporting cruel apartheid in South Africa and after you had sent thousands of innocent Jews to ovens, after your inhuman colonization of Indonesia came to an end.
I also visited Holland before your country turned totally fascist and started supporting bigots like Geert Wilders.
We also asked all Muslims to send Tulips and roses to Mr. Wilders and we support the SIOE to help you all eliminate all islamic influences from Europe.
We traced the history of Dutch bigotry. The Dutch Nazi past cannot be forgotten. Nether can Dutch brutality in Indonesia.
This is how the world perceives Geert WIlders and the Netherlands. you keep supporting the bigots, and you keep reminding the world about how brutal bigots all of you are.
We also showed you the concentration camps. Send all Muslims there? You are already there. Only 20% left.
Was Slaam and God Bless You
Thank you for your comment. I can understand why you feel this way. The dutch were violent in the past. But right now we give many money to muslim country’s to help them. We just don’t want Holland to be a muslim country. You talk about Holland as a Nazi country. Holland was taken and bombed by the Germans. My grandfather died in the battle. How can you say we are nazi’s.
You are right that we were a violence country in the history, but so were England, Spain Italia, and the rest of Europe. So were all the muslim country’s. Evey country have used violence. In holland we can say whatever we say, and you must respect that and not call us nazi’s. I support Geert Wilders because he is not scared to recognise problems, and we have many problems with the muslims. You can not denie it, if you look at the facts.
I’ll react on your message on my site as soon as possible.
good luck
Joep Zander
Most honorable moinansari,
You have no idea what ur talking about. Your hatred towards the west blinds you that’s clear though.
It’s exactly people like you the right-wing in Holland (a minority group) wants to get rid of, does that make sense to you?
And about the Wilders-movie, it ain’t even out yet and youre offended already?? Get some ^&%^*&*&sanity in your twisted mind.
Or have you seen it already? Please give me the link, I want to watch it also, and AFTER that I will give my opinion about it.
I disagree about your so called Dutch nazi past or Indonesia brutallity. And it was the Germans and Japanese who build those camps you mentioned.
Read some more history books.
you can start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#World_War_II
Please send more tulips and roses, it’s a good start for open and peaceful discussion.
(although I doubt youre someone who would make your point this way)
Wishing you all the best.
I can tell by your weird collection of pictures, stories and statements that you don’t know much about Holland or it’s past.
You choose to single out a few mishaps (the independence war of Indonesia and the Apartheid), create a nice one (Holland was not responsible for the deaths of jews in WW II, it was occupied by Nazi-Germany, go read a history book) and fail to mention everything the Dutch society has contributed to world history. If any man is responsible for the deeds of his ancestors, this whole world would be filled with nothing but killers.
Why would you insult everyone in Holland, because one man makes a movie about the Qu’ran?
You’re no different from Geert Wilders, you’re exactly the same.
I’d say “Wassalam and God Bless You”, but I’m an atheist. Do you wanna kill me now? Because that’s what the Qu’ran tells you to do with infidels =)
Can’t remember what link it was that made me find this incredibly (don’t know the exact English word) opiniated piece of text. Being a Dutch boy, I was very curious to read about my country in the perspective of a foreigner, but I didn’t expect this sort of hate-text.
I myself don’t know if I would vote for Wilders, but so far he is the only dutch politician who adressed the growing problem of Muslims in Holland.
Although I don’t really have the time to go into details right now, I will adress the biggest flukes, misconceptions and possibly lies that are in this written piece.
“Civilized people all over the world are waiting for the Dutch to refute the nonsense perpetuated by the right wingers like Geert Wilders. This week we got an answer. A pathetic 1000 people showed up to condemn the right wing hijacking this miserable country.”
actually, the number of a 1000 people showing up is still a rather large number, as about half of the people standing there we’re tourists wondering what was going on. But anyway, the reason almost no Dutchmen showed up to ‘Condemn the right-wing hijack”, since there has not been a right-wing hijack. The right parties in Holland (VVD, SGP, PVV and TON) together represent 34 of the 150 seats, a mere twentysomething percent. Of these parties, only SGP (which is a Reformed christian party with 2 seats) takes a part in the goverment, the others are all in opposition.
Besides, a thousand people from a 16 million population condemning an action of one of them, is still a larger number that ZERO MUSLIMS IN HOLLAND comdeming either the 9-11 attacks nor the murder of Theo van Gogh.
“He does not want to let any more Muslims into the country and he wants the Muslims who already live here to renounce part of their own culture in order to assimilate into Dutch culture.”
Actually, he does not wan’t to let anyone in the country who’s not western, not just Muslims. The fact of the matter is that Holland is a pretty busy place, with already more people living in it than the surface could feed. Wilders wants to stop foreigners to come into the Netherlands en masse.
But the part where you seem to find it immoral of Geert Wilders to renounce part of their own culture in favour of the Dutch is more interessting. The pieces of their Islamic Culture GW wants them to renounce are not from the Koran itself, but from the Sharia, muslim law. A lot of rules in this Islamic Lawbook are not in sync with what we believe to be the Human Rights.
Examples of this are i.e. that for a woman, the crime of being raped (not raping, but being raped) is punishable by death by stoning. The word of a man is more than the word of a woman.
Last, since I have to hurry now, I want to comment on what you replied to Frank, my fellow dutchman. At the end you say “We also showed you the concentration camps. Send all Muslims there? You are already there. Only 20% left.”
You obviously have no grasp of reality concerning the Dutch prisons. Most Dutchmen complain about how we send our criminals to a state-sponsered hotel, but to you it seems more like concentration camps?
I have to admit that Holland has indeed a history of conquering other nations and implying our will on them, but that was in a time when the moral’s of the world weren’t as evolved as they are today. It’s not like we’re making little plastic actionfigures of white farmers and black africans, something the Americans we’re proud to do.
As finishing touch I would like to comment on you personally, saying that I rarely find anyone as sure of his own opinions and beliefs. And isn’t that what would make you a bigot?
ps:
Bring as many Geert WIlders as you want, Islam keeps on growing and is the fasstest growing religion in the world!…come to grips withat simple fact!
In Holland we come to grip with that simple fact, we have a guy working on it now :P
Thank you for your comment. I can understand why you feel this way. The dutch were violent in the past. But right now we give many money to muslim country’s to help them. We just don’t want Holland to be a muslim country. You talk about Holland as a Nazi country. Holland was taken and bombed by the Germans. My grandfather died in the battle. How can you say we are nazi’s.
You are right that we were a violence country in the history, but so were England, Spain Italia, and the rest of Europe. So were all the muslim country’s. Evey country have used violence. In holland we can say whatever we say, and you must respect that and not call us nazi’s. I support Geert Wilders because he is not scared to recognise problems, and we have many problems with the muslims. You can not denie it, if you look at the facts.
Mr. Frank:
With all due respect and all humility you cannot explain away Dutch brutality in Indonesia, South Africa, and other places.
Not sure if you teach you the sanitized version of history abour the War, but the Dutch were very complicit with the Nazis in the rouding up, deportation,transportation and extermination of patriotic and innocent Dutch citizens who happened to be Jewish.
The cruelty with which the Duch massacrd the Indonesians for four years has no parallel in colonialism except perhaps in Algeria.
Normal people like who support the right wing Wilders are the most dangerous to the most vulnerable part of Dutch society. Those who sopported Naziism and colonialism are just as guilty as those who actually pulled the trigeers and turned on the gas ovens. This was clearly established in Nuremberg.
The Jews in Holland are calling the Dutch Nazi. We agree.
I wrote a new article in response to you. It is called
You may enjoy it!
Joep Zander:
I look forward to your message. Please do cross post here on our site.
Dutch bigot:
Netherlands is the only country in the world where one can be proud to be a “bigot”. Congratualations! the term fits you and we are glad you are proud of being a bigot! I actually don’t need to say anything more, your screen name proves my point.
Nice to meet you also.
>>”together represent 34 of the 150 seats, a mere twentysomething percent. Of these parties, only SGP (which is a Reformed christian party with 2 seats) takes >>a part in the goverment, the others are all in opposition.”
You helped me prove my point, that a flower cannot grow in a desert. It needs food water and nurturing. the Duth provide this to the likes of Mr. Wilders. Therefore all Dutch are bigots and have a history of racism and anti-semitism.
>>Besides, a thousand people from a 16 million population condemning an action of one of them, is still a larger number that ZERO MUSLIMS IN HOLLAND >>comdeming either the 9-11 attacks nor the murder of Theo van Gogh
hmmmm! You can’t be serious…who can condone murder. The Quran says “the murder of one person is the murder of all humanity, and saving gthe life of one person is like saving all of humanity”. Of course bigots cant read these verses of the glorious Quran. We have already written huge articles on Muslims condeming violence and condeming 911. Just do a google search on “Muslims condemn violence” and “Muslims condemn 911″ and honestly report the number of hits you get. The last time I counted was several thousand.
Also if you have an iota of integrity read, the comments of the Organization of Islmaic conferences, and the heads of almost every head of state–from Indonesia, to angladesh, to Turkey to Pakistan, even Iran. Every mosque and every major Muslim organization condemned the violence. For you to say the contrary is not being turthful. Please also read te following article. Have you seen “Loose Change”? Please do!
REFUTING THE MYTH TO DEMONIZE MUSLIMS:-Why did Muslims not condemn the violence
Why did Muslims not condemn the violence.
Your Greet Wilders is only making Muslims more resolute in their religion and creating more defences.
Hey! Thank Geert for making the Birthday of prophet Muhammad the most celeberated event in the Muslim world this years. A few years ago, it was observed in mosques ony by the very religious. This year, thanks to the Dansih and the Dutch, millions were out on the streets singing, dancing and really celeberating the birtday in a devout and religious manner.
Dutch bigot. Bring on the Geerts. Multiply them by 100. There are 1.5 Billion Muslims on the planet. In 20 years the population will double. Do you have any idea of what you are looking at. The puny efforts to pressure netowork Solutions mean nothing.
Islam is the fastest growing relgigion in the world and 4 out of 5 converts are women. Learn to live with it.
Remember the Borg? Resistance is futile, You will be assimilated.
Ha! Ha Ha (scared you didn’t I…just kidding…smile!!!
RESPONSE TO FRANK AND JOA SPANDA and Good Duth who did try to reject what is wrong
This is for all of those who took the trouble to reach out to us.
Growing up Muslim and Loving Holland!
Mijn lieve Nederlandse vriend:
Het hallo, Shalom and Salaam:
To all the Dutch. Thank you for responding to my posts which have generated quite an interest from our Dutch friends in Holland and elsewhere. Yesterday we received one of our highest number of hits.
I guess they don’t teach the Dutch the truth about their history. All Jews were expelled out of Amsterdam in the 15th century. Collaborators in Holland sent thousands of Jews to the Nazi camps specially Dachao. Amsterdam: Deze zijn eigenlijke afbeeldingen van nazi’s marcherene Joden naar concentratiekamp in. The Germans Nazis have harmed you more than any Muslim ever can. You love the Germans who killed millions, and you hate the Muslims because of one murder and some petty criminals! Amazing logic.
The Dutch have a horrible history in South Africa, Indonesia and other places. From 1945 to 1949 you massacred millions of Indonesians causing havoc with the country and it went communist. Then millions more died under Suharto.
Muslim response to the Dutch and Geert Wilders
Muslims support Stop Islamization of Europe (SOIE)s efforts to eliminate Islamic influences from Europe
Celebrate Tulipomania again. Muslims should send Tulips and Roses to Geert Wilders.
Unnecessary provocation?.
Where are the Good Dutch? Waar zijn het Goede Nederlands?.
America is the most Shariah compliant country in the world.
Duth Bigotry Incorporated and Geert Wilders Inc inaugurates more energy efficient ovens for Muslims.
http://rupeenews.com/2008/01/29/geert-wilders-muslims-support-10-point-plan-to-stop-islamaization-of-europe/
Stop Islamization of Europe.
CIVILIZATIONS ARE LIKE SPONGES: We do not believe in the “clash of civilizations”. It is more a ying-yang than good and evil. We think of civilizations as sponges rather than concrete barriers. The sponges become full and overflow. Different civilizations leak knowledge and culture to the one which is next to it and to others. I have serious issues with the boundaries of East and West. These boundaries are artificial, not geographic, and meaningless. Why is Bosnia not in the West. Why is Japan in the East? Why is Israel in the West and Palestine in the East? The West and the East have merged many times and became better. Even the Crusades had some (very few) redeeming features. Colonialism brought the cultures together, even though in a horrid manner. Why is Christianity Western and Islam an Eastern religion when both started in the same neighborhood?
MUSLIMS ALSO LOVE HOLLAND: What makes you say that anyone who complains about Islamophobia hates the West. I love the West and all it has to offer. Listen the first time I visited Holland in the 70s, I was a teenager and I was enthralled by the Netherlands and its people. I fondly remember the wonderful tulips and the windmills. We accidentally ended up in St. Pauli street or whatever, and I was, well you know how teenagers are.
I saw a young Dutch girl in the playground, I still remember her, dark hair, freckles on her face and red ribbons. We exchanged small gifts, wrote to each other for years after I had left Holland. It wasn’t love and it wasn’t sexual, it was friendship.
I remember the old men who gave us directions without knowing a word of English. I also cherish the memories of the neighbors who came to our hotel rooms and camps and offered us small delights of lemonade after my mother had made chips (sweet potatoes from Holland). These same friends visited us in Pakistan and even stayed with you, and of course we did not charge them.
My father at the time told me about Dutch history in Indonesia and gave me a subtle warning “everything is not what it seems”. Like a typical teenager I was more interested in the images that I had seen then listening to history lessons from my father. Now I know what he meant. He was right, all that glitters is not gold.
DEAL WITH YOUR PROBLEMS ON A LOCAL LEVEL: Then all this started happening and my wonderful memories of the Dutch became tangled up with the images that came out of Holland. New York, Brazilia, Mexico City, Paris, Seoul, Havana, Moscow, Tokyo, Beijing, London, Delhi, Lagos and Karachi all have “no-go areas”-usually slums run by petty criminals and mafias. Why should Amsterdam be an exception? Deal with it at the police level. I don’t want to hear about your problems as much as you don’t want to hear about mine.
The Dutch say that you have a problem with “criminals” (Muslims, Blacks, Africans, Criminal, Indians, others) in Holland. How you deal with Christian criminals, Jewish jokers, and Muslim madmen, is your internal problem. It is not my problem. You say you have democracy. Deal with the problem. Deal with your Muslims there. We are not them!
Why do you involve me? Why involve me and others like me in matters that are none of my concern. When you start abusing the Quran and the prophet, then we draw the line. We do not like it. Your right to swing your fist ends before it hits my face.
You have a right to do whatever you want, bestiality, hashish, pot, group orgies, we really don’t care. You can dance naked in the streets, and have sadism on top of your windmills. We don’t care!
However when you insult our prophet and our holy book, we do not like it and we think it is unfair to do so because we have done nothing to you to hurt you. Why provoke illiterate and penury stricken populations that are then used for local political purposes. Haven’t you had enough of these games during colonialism?
WHY WE CAN’T LOVE HOLLAND ANYMORE? If you make a film and degrade the prophet and the holy book and our religion, then you must weigh the risks and the rewards. Obviously you have calculated the return on investment analysis on spreading hate and provoking Muslims. Don’t expect to win any popularity contests, and don’t expect the export of Dutch goods to go up. Muslims, Arabs and other will learn to live without your goods, and we will purchase them from others or make them ourselves.
DUTCH ARE FROM MARS AND MUSLIMS ARE FROM VENUS: We cannot understand the hypocrisy of having laws on blasphemy and holocaust-denial yet you want to hurt the feeling of 1.5 Billion Muslims. For you this freedom of speech is very clear. For us it is not so clear, because we see double standards in your thinking. Muslims don’t buy this freedom of speech bulls***. Sorry!
You keep making the films, and we will keep on equating you with the Nazis. You keep provoking Muslims and eventually it will impact your economy. You will continue to do what you want. We of course cannot convince you.
However don’t expect us to love the Dutch like we used to!
THE MORE YOU PROVOKE THE MORE REACTION YOU WILL GET: One last thing, Eid a Milad un Nabi (celebrating the birth of the prophet Muhammad0 used to be a low key affair usually restricted to very faithful. Since the cartoons and because of Geert Wilders provocations, now it has become a major holiday in Pakistan where even secular Pakistanis and non-believers celebrate it and defy Denmark and Holland. Islam is the faster growing religion in the world and four out of five converts are women.
Muslims are at a disadvantage. When you make fun of the prophet, Muslims don’t make fun of Jesus, because he is sacred to Muslims also. When you make fun of the Quran, Muslims can’t tear up the Quran, because the Bible is sacred to the Muslims also.
Kindly send me the address of a flower shop that will send roses and tulips to Mr. Geert Wilders. I don’t want his address or anything. I guess I can send it to the Dutch parliament.
Match me Dollar for Dollar. I will send tulips to Geert, you send flowers to your Muslim neighbors.
We still don’t hate the Dutch. Who can hate the 1000 who were brave enough to come out and protest in the streets of Amsterdam and reject the Islamophobia of Mr. Wilders.
Now at 50, I can’t say the same about the Dutch. I don’t love you guys anymore! I don’t hate you, but we cant love you anymore. You say you don’t care. We say, we don’t care either!
God Bless Geert Wilders and God Bless all the Dutch
Kindly translate this so that I can post this letter on Dutch sites.
Moinansari,
at first, it is funny you tried to write down some dutch words. My advice, don’t.
At second thanks for your very long comment.
Like i said before, the dutch were violent in the past. At this moment we are not. And we live right now do we? We dont live 1000 years ago.
————————————–
Muslims, Blacks, Africans, Criminal, Indians, others) in Holland. How you deal with Christian criminals, Jewish jokers, and Muslim madmen, is your internal problem. It is not my problem. You say you have democracy. Deal with the problem. Deal with your Muslims there. We are not them!
——————————————–
It is said but it is true that Muslims and Black people have the highest percentage on criminal activities. You can talk what you want but that is just the true.
We dutch punise a christian criminal just as soft/hard as a muslim criminal. The fact is, there are just more muslim criminals than christian criminals. So what is your point? You say deal with the problem. That is what we want. Geert Wilders is not too scared to deal with the problem. I understand you are not them, and that is okey. But let us deal wit them.
————————————————————————–
You love the Germans who killed millions, and you hate the Muslims because of one murder and some petty criminals! Amazing logic.
————————————————————————–
We dont love the Germans. That is only what you want to believe. In fact we hate the Germans. They were always Hollands biggest rivals. Since you know the Dutch people so good, you must know we love Football.
Look at this site and see how we think about the Germans we always joke at them http://www.schade-deutschland-alles-ist-vorbei.com/ when there is a game we always have fights. Me and my friends fought against german people on a holiday. We dont love Germans. You also say we colaborated jews and send them to camps. My family hided Jews for the Germans.
The thing that you dont understand. We dutch respect woman, we dutch respect freedom of speech. The muslims have a different opinion on that. That causes troubles. They say dutch woman are whores because they like to show their body. Many muslima girls need to wear the head thing and they dont want it, if they take it off their family will kick her or sometime worse. It is just not what we stand for in Holland. That’s why there is Geert Wilders.
That’s an Amazing Logica isn’t it.
Well.. i dont if i should say god bless you..
God can make people so blinded in hate.
Holland is not that bad as you think.
Take a beer, and just relax.
Another example we dont really like the germans. http://youtube.com/watch?v=N9xzNjQ984I
Please read my current article on Muslims who love Holland. This will tell you who I am.http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/25/muslim-and-loving-holland-open-letter-to-the-dutch-wilder-mijn-lieve-nederlandse-vriend/
Whether you like the Germans or not is besides the point. The Dutch were complicit in Nazi crimes, in the rounding up, deportaiton and transportation of innocent patriotic Dutch citizens who happened to be Jewish. This is not 1000 years ago. It is our parents. The pictures of Jews being rounded up is a real picture of Amersterdam
The Dutch cannot absolve themselves the crimes of their parents in South Africa and Indonesia.
The Dutch have a history of bigotry for a 1000 years and it si important because you are only being Dutch…NOTHING NEW!.
We dont expect any better from the Dutch.
If you support Geert, you are complicit in bigtory and racism and you wont finds friends in the world.
IF “they” say that some women are whores…do you care…we don’t whores come in all nationalities and shapes..
Please read my current article on Muslims who loved Holland and cannot do it anymore becuase of Geert Wilders.
Solve your crime problem with Africans and Blacks. Dont involve he entire world. New York has the Russian mafia, the Italian mafia, the Spanish mafia and Black gangs…that does not mean we begin burning the Bibles, and throwing the Torah in the street.
You say Dutch are not so bad…how can we believe you when you insult my religion, my prophet, my book and everyting that we hodl dear! This does not make you friends. It makes you non-friends
Cheers. Heniken was good but it is Dutch..now shift to German!
Was Salaam (peace) or May the force be with you if you prefer!
A little about what is going on in Pakistan:
While the confrontation between the army and nationalist activists intensified in Balochistan province, in the tribal areas the government agreed a peace pact with tribal elders and local Taleban. The September agreement apparently allowed tribal fighters to find shelter and to set up quasi-governmental structures, collect taxes, impose their “penal code” and exercise quasi-judicial functions.
Some people were publicly executed by vigilante groups seeking to impose their own interpretation of Islamic norms. More than 100 people were killed in the tribal areas, apparently for co-operating with the government. Many decapitated bodies were found with notes warning others not to support the government.
The dialogue with India faltered when Indian police accused Pakistan of involvement in bomb blasts in Mumbai, and Pakistan accused India of supporting Baloch nationalists. It resumed towards the end of the year.
Think it’s better to focus on your own problems right now than bashing another country because of some movie that noone has seen yet. And if there ever has been some cruelty going on in the history of Holland, 50-60 years ago, that’s the past.
Iets met oude koeien uit de sloot halen.
The real war is going on in your own country right now. The death of Bhutto illustrates that.
as promised my comment:
Holland is a kind of wild country. Everyone is expecting it to be a well developed democracy in which people tend to be nice to each other and in which human rights are respected.
Holland is sometimes a wilder country then a lot of country’s we usually refer to as banana republics. It is not respecting basic democratic rights.
At this moment Holland is, seen trough the eyes of a lot of moslims in the world, seen as the wildest country looking at the way we are biased and disrespectful.
As one person seems to set the agenda and the public image for Holland we even can call Holland the Wilderst country. read on
Ha! Ha! Mr. Zonnet Van Rimple just got up I guess and did some google searches and came up with an analysis… the Bombay balsts happened about 5 years ago and have nothing to do with the price of rice in China.
There is nothing about the movie in any of the posts. Dutch bigotry is alive and well.
I guess the Nazis planted enough seeds in the Dutch and Aparthied still exists.
Mr. Zonnet keeps harping on the movie. None of our postings are baout hte movie…the Dutch bigotry for the past 1000 years disgusts all of us.
I guess less people died in Pakistan in the past few months than die in the USA in a day! In the USA more than 10,000 people are murdered every year. There is a war going on …it is for the soul of the Ducth…right now the bigots are winning!…and Islam keeps on growing!
I posted this blog on Dutch sites like (http://nieuwnieuws.nl/archives/tech/2008/03/fitnathemoviecom_terecht_offli.html).
This and all my artilces have been taken off all the Dutch boards.
So much for Free speech! I guess Free Speech is allowed as long as you pour disgrace on Islam.
What hypocracy!
Hi,
I want to keep this as short as possible, as I view both your “stories” as repetive “bigotry”, since you seem so eager to use that word.
1) Stop bringing up the oh-so dreaded “colonial pasts”, that argument lost its strength when Robert Mugabe was voted into office. We (being the “former colonial powers”) are not very impressed with that argument any more.
2) I don’t think you are aware of the fact that Holland was *occupied* during World War II, if you honestly believe they had anything to say at all, you probably shouldn’t be so loud on a subject like this. Sure there were capitulators, sure there were traitors, but knocking over an entire people as being “Nazi’s” just because they rendered assistance to a violent occupying force at gunpoint is ridiculous, and reduces your credibility to smoking pile of “WTF”, as the term goes. Again, not impressed.
3) I find your ravagings of their national flag repulsive. If you’re that keen on waving the swastika all over the place, please do it in a sensible manner. How would you like me if I’d replace your nice Pakistani white crescent moon with nonsensical slogans and post it all over a blog? Thought so.
4) Your entire article is horribly constructed, I can’t even begin to point out numerous historical errors, contradictions, flawed reasoning etc, etc. Not to even mention your own… low quality English. I admire your enthousiasm to participate in this debate, but this simply made no sense. At all. Get your facts straight.
5) Before you begin to instruct me on how I am ignorant to what “horrible crimes” were committed in the colonial/WW2 era’s of this nation, I am not Dutch. I’m British, and coming from a country where we have these “debates” more often than I’d like, I know what I’m talking about. Don’t lecture us on “pouring disgrace” on anything, your merry flag burning get-togethers aren’t exactly graceful all the same (See, I can generalize too!), though I realise that they are orchestrated with the use of mass indoctrination. Who’s the evil empire now?
God save the Queen.
Wassalam.
WAS:
1) No one is trying to impress the colonialists. That time has past..I think half a century ago. We are not impressed by Hitler, Churchill, the IRA, Clive, Mountbatten, Thatcher either. The bill is 150 Trillion Dollars. Read about it on this site.
2) Thank you for the history lesson on the 2nd tribal war in Europe (WW2). The Dutch were the worst collaborators. The pictures are actual pictures of the rounding up of the innocent Dutch citizens who happened to be Jewish.
3) Go ahead. We have seen worse out of Denmark and Amsterdam…and may we add London too. Mr. Powell’s racism lives in the hearts and minds of many if not all Brits.
4) No one was trying to impress you with English. 2000 people visited the site yesterday. We are sorry to inform you that English is no criteria of intelligence. The article was meant to be mainly visual so that the Dutch could understnad it…and based on the response they sure did. This was a test to examine Dutch sensitivities, and was deliberately meant to be provocative. How is your Swahili? Pretty bad eh? I do pretty well thank you. Please send list of corrections.
5) Being British does not absolve you of the horrible crimes that the Brits committed all over the planet and continue to commit. Jalianwala Bagh, Black hole of Calcutta, 200 years of colonialism didn’t really create a lot fo goodwill for you guys did it?
6) Flag burning get togethers don’t equate to the stuff that Geert Wilders is talking about. These WIlder antics are designed to provoke penury stricken populations.
PS: This was an experiment to test “Freedom of Speech” in Holland. As expected, they can dish it out but can’t take it. Censorship reigns on Dutch boards where “Free speech” from the other side was NOT tolerated. The writings were abused, and the writer was banned. Almost all articles were removed. So much for Free speech!
Which Queen? Diana? God didn’t save her from the MI6! or the 9 wives of Henry the 8th!
Thanks
Was Salaam
The Dutch were the worst collaborators ?
You just don’t know anything about WW II…. France had their Vichy goverment, while Spain was helped by the Germans in their civil war prior to WW II, Rumania and Italy were allies of Hitler and Sweden provided Germany with steel to manufacture bombs, grenades, tanks, u-boats and what not.
Beside all this, The Netherlands were neutral during WW I and remained neutral until Hitler decided he needed our coastline to assault the UK.
I can take criticism when it’s true, you’re just making stuff up.
I read in the comments that you’re from Pakistan. Howmany people were violently killed in the past 20 years in Pakistan ? Howmany people live below poverity level in Pakistan ? And howmany corrupt politicians and military men enrich themselves and their relatives ?
You should try and solve the problems in your own country and stop pointing your little fingers to problems that are
1) not of your concern
2) in size and violence in NO comparison to the problems in your own country
And, sure … this whole hate campaign of yours against the people of The Netherlands was “just an experiment to test “Freedom of Speech” in Holland.
Make a website with everything that is wrong in your own country and try out the freedom of speech in Pakistan. The military are destroying your country, let’s see how fast you’ll get shot for speaking out, like all those farmers that are getting robbed from their land.
That’s ok though, you’ll go to heaven and receive your own 72 virgins. Nice fairtytale to believe in, during your life in poverty on earth. Something nice to look forward to.
Cheers
1) What?
2) Again you are generalising, it doesn’t reinforce your statements, nor improve your credibility.
3) I you were to actually look at what the current political climate in the UK is like, you wouldn’t make such a statement.
4) I quote from your other article on this matter:
“right to defend bad speech…uh, not good in English…. haven’t you forgotten v vere in Indonesia”.
Don’t bash people on their English when yours is lacking, that was the message.
5) So you hold me responsible for what the British Empire alledgely did to you country? If so, nothing to say here.
You going out into your streets shouting “Death to the infidels, death to Danmark” etc., etc. sure is a nice way to create goodwill.
6) I didn’t see him burn a Qu’ran, a flag or anything ridiculous like that. I agree it does not equate, YOU are taking it to a whole new level. A dangerous one.
Your experiment worked, I found this link on a humour website. You caused a great deal of fun. I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it.
… Diana wasn’t a queen.
Cheers.
Ok moinansari,i joined this site just to reply to u.
[ww II ]
First… (i really got irritated by this just because of ur sick and twisted view on things)
Imagine… a legion of soldiers intimidating ur village, with this i mean gathering up EVERYONE to see if there are jew’s. If there are jew’s, they are killed, if you know a jew, you are taken with them, if u HIDE a jew, u are killed.
Ok….
Now imagine this situation while u’ve allready seen 50 executions(germans were good in scaring the crowd), and every Hollander(*Dutch person) knows where the jew’s are.
This puts ur family, ur friends, and u in danger.
Constant fear of ur family (UR sisters, brothers, mother/father, children).
now WHAT would u do? i think u can speak so freely cuz u have never faced this problem, talking how the dutch are traitors etc just shows how IGNORANT u must be.
Compare this to u having a shop.
ur children and wife are present, a robber comes in, and tells u if u do not hand over the jewelry they will shoot ur children one by one then ur wife, what would u do?WHAT WOULD U DO? Save ur family? or give them something that isnt urs? i dont know for sure, but my guess is that 90% of the people (if not higher) would chose for their family.
[freedom of speech]
If a Dutch person posts a swastika, he is banned, if a muslim is posting a swastika, he is banned, if a russian is posting a swastika, he is banned, this is not cuz of “FREEDOM OF SPEECH”,but imho more because the swastika was a sign used by the nazi’s and holland has nothing to do with the original sign or with the nazi’s, so we dont want to be affiliated with it (Still a touchy subject, it hasnt even been 100 years ago)
but here comes the funpart.
If you say JEZUS WAS A NIMBWIT, the bible is only made by a man that wanted to indoctrinate and to control a group of people, its okay.
If u say MOHAMMED Was a full-time gaylord, that got his 72 MALE-virgins in heaven, its okay.
If u say JEHOVA Is just a fairytale, its okay.
see the comparison?
A BOOK + thousand of people murdered by nazi’s carrying the swastika.
I dont, they are 2 complete different things.
You can give ur opinion about pretty much everything basicly, but to amplify the effect done by the nazi’s 60 years ago(or with any other genocide), u would have to be sick-minded.
Hell, give comments about the dutch people that we are stupid, That we look ugly, That we are dumb that we are non-believers, that our bible is a bunch of bullcrap, that our god stinks, and then comment this.
Make a picture of jezus with a dildo up his ass.
Will we ever riot? NO.
Will we ever kill a person for saying/telling this? (NO, well maybe a mentally ill person but rotten apple’s are everywhere)
Try getting banned for anything of that on a forum.
U wont, as long as u live ur life here as any other normal citizen u can say what u want.
I Think its the same as confronting an Armanian with pictures/footage of the genocide.
Or after the slave-period going to a black male and putting ur boots on his head saying eat dirt slave (or something similar like that)
THIS is scary and shouldnt happen because these are reminders of something that really happened, and has left a major scar in the country/hearts of people.
U have to wake up, this isnt just a book.
Just a book remember..
ALLWAYS Keep that in mind.
Just for the record: geert wilders doesnt state MUSLIMS are bad, he says the KURAN is bad, and the islam is severely outdated.
Offcourse he isnt completely right, no-one ever knows the full truth, but think of it MIGHT it not be true that ALL the religious books are outdated?
Sure if u want ur people to feel one, stop killing eachother and treat eachother right, u can write a NEW book, that would prove useful even in these days.
But offcourse that isnt a possibility because all the easiliy indoctrined (read: believers) believe so heavily in the book that they would never even try to get a different view on things.
God = God, The word of god = the word of god, we cant change it? Cmon, there is no god, there is no devil, there is no heaven, even if u kill ppl ur spirit wont go to hell, these writings were all made (imho) for people to live as one and live long and happily.
Scientology is becoming a religion (if it continues its growth), i wonder if the people will believe this bullcrap “religion” as well in 2000 years, guess not because we got better ways to record events atm, but if they only find one copy of the book, stupid people might believe this as well.
Ridiculous..
De moslims zijn de fascisten, want die vermoorden iedereen die kritiek op ze uit. Als je dus hakenkruizen op een vlag wilt zetten, zet ze dan maar op een moslimvlag.
Vroeger waren er genoeg “goede Nederlanders”. Janmaat werd weggepest en iedereen die tegen immigranten was was een rechtse fascist. Daarna gingen moslims juichen over de aanslagen van 9/11, voetballen met kransen van oorlogsslachtoffers en vonden ze het terecht dat Theo van Gogh vermoord was. Ze waren immers in “oorlog” met het Westen. Osama was hun held want die pleegde aanslagen op het “verderfelijke” Westen waar de moslims met liefde kwamen wonen omdat ze daar de uitkeringen konden krijgen waar hardwerkende Nederlandse ouderen hun hele leven voor hadden gewerkt.
En nu komen die stinkmoslims hun ondankbaarheid tonen door de gastheer leeg te vreten en hem ondertussen uit te schelden.
Terug naar de zandbak met jullie!
Sorry, in Dutch:
De moslims zijn de fascisten, want die vermoorden iedereen die kritiek op ze uit. Als je dus hakenkruizen op een vlag wilt zetten, zet ze dan maar op een moslimvlag.
Vroeger waren er genoeg “goede Nederlanders”. Janmaat werd weggepest en iedereen die tegen immigranten was was een rechtse fascist. Daarna gingen moslims juichen over de aanslagen van 9/11, voetballen met kransen van oorlogsslachtoffers en vonden ze het terecht dat Theo van Gogh vermoord was. Ze waren immers in “oorlog” met het Westen. Osama was hun held want die pleegde aanslagen op het “verderfelijke” Westen waar de moslims met liefde kwamen wonen omdat ze daar de uitkeringen konden krijgen waar hardwerkende Nederlandse ouderen hun hele leven voor hadden gewerkt.
En nu komen die stinkmoslims hun ondankbaarheid tonen door de gastheer leeg te vreten en hem ondertussen uit te schelden.
Terug naar de zandbak met jullie!
Hello monansari,
You have really got a wrong idea of The Netherlands. You are talking about our history, why don’t we talk about now?
I really can not understand that you hate a country that has been violence in the past. While at this moment, in 2008. We give your country very much money to build it up. You get more than a miljard dollars, from country’s as England, Holland, Germany, Japan and France.
I want to say that is a good thing that you can write when i see that 65% of your people can not read or can not write.
Womans in Pakistan dont have any freedom, and you say we have not a freedom of Speech? You let little children work on the fields and in the fabrics. That’s cruel. In Holland we are against Child-Work. We the dutch are very good with water, we won the battle against the sea as you will know since you know our history that good. We the dutch are in Pakistan helping your waterproblems. We are in your country helping to get a cleaner production for the milleui problems. We also are in your schools to teach you more about human rights. So the dutch are even helping your country. But i think it will be a fact that you dont want to hear. Your own country is a weak country, that need’s help from other country’s as Holland and England, and now you want to tell us we are racist? I am sorry but if we were that racist we would just bomb your country, it is not that hard to do it. But no, instead of that we help you people, and you complain about the dutch people now because we have problems with the muslims. It is also a shame that Butto was killed. And you have Musharraf, as i would say you are not really a good country. I think you are heartless that you hate Holland, while Holland is helping Pakistan!
Maybe the best thing for you is: focus on your own country and make the world a better place.
Response to Elme Romero. I will update this short response with a comprehensive article on Dutch Nazi colloboration
DUTCH DENIAL OF COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS
Dutch colloboration with Nazis.
Netherlands
Thousands of Dutch volunteers were soldiers of the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland (created in February 1943). The division participated in fights against Soviet army and was crushed in the Berlin battle in April-May 1945.
SS-Freiwilligen Legion Niederlande, manned by Dutch volunteers, battled against the Soviet army beginning in 1941. In December 1944 it was transformed into the 23rd SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nederland, and participated in fights in Courland and Pomerania[1]. Source Wikipedia
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0018-246X(198909)32%3A3%3C783%3ANRADCT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Y
Nazi Rule and Dutch Collaboration. The Netherlands under German Occupation, 1940-1945 by Gerhard Hirschfeld
Requiem for the Resistance. The Civilian Struggle against Nazism in Holland and Germany by Herman Friedhoff
Author(s) of Review: H. W. von der Dunk
The Historical Journal, Vol. 32, No. 3 (Sep., 1989), pp. 783-787
THE DUTCH, THE GERMANS, & THE JEWS.(Dutch-Nazi collaboration)
From: History Today | Date: 6/1/1999 | Author: Brinks, Jan Herman
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Dutch historians are currently revising the popular view of the relationship between the Netherlands and Germany’s Nazis during World War II. Contrary to the popular belief on collaboration, anticommunism in the Netherlands led to close Dutch-German collaboration and prewar arrests of Marxists and Jews.
Jan Herman Brinks examines the Dutch myth of resistance and finds collaboration with the Nazis went right to the top.
Careful readers of the compelling diary of Anne Frank might notice
Response to adutchy
Thank you posting your comments and trying to reach out to Muslims
You say he was not against the Muslims but against the Quran. If it was the other way round, there would be no problem, and all of us would join him and you in rejecting bad Muslims…and there are plenty of them. When you say things against the Quran, we don’t like it.
A lot of excuses for buthering innocent patriotic Dutch citizens who happened to be Jewish, Gay or gypsies. the Dutch rounded them up and sent them to many cmaps to die. The same mentlaity led them to massacre thousands of people in Indonesia. The same mentality led to the horrid abuses of Aparthied. The same mentality now produces bigots like Mr. Geert Wilders and his supporters. There is a pattern of Dutch racism.
The History of the Netherlands is a vivid example of horrible atrocities in the world and now the same pattern is used to provoke innocent people around the world and crate pre-weimar like atmosphere in the Netherlands. Jewish leaders in Holland say it is just like pre-WW2.
Thousands of Dutch volunteers were soldiers of the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland (created in February 1943). The division participated in fights against Soviet army and was crushed in the Berlin battle in April-May 1945.
SS-Freiwilligen Legion Niederlande, manned by Dutch volunteers, battled against the Soviet army beginning in 1941. In December 1944 it was transformed into the 23rd SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nederland, and participated in fights in Courland and Pomerania[1]. Source Wikipedia
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0018-246X(198909)32%3A3%3C783%3ANRADCT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Y
Nazi Rule and Dutch Collaboration. The Netherlands under German Occupation, 1940-1945 by Gerhard Hirschfeld
Requiem for the Resistance. The Civilian Struggle against Nazism in Holland and Germany by Herman Friedhoff
Author(s) of Review: H. W. von der Dunk
The Historical Journal, Vol. 32, No. 3 (Sep., 1989), pp. 783-787
THE DUTCH, THE GERMANS, & THE JEWS.(Dutch-Nazi collaboration)
From: History Today | Date: 6/1/1999 | Author: Brinks, Jan Herman
Print Digg del.icio.us
Dutch historians are currently revising the popular view of the relationship between the Netherlands and Germany’s Nazis during World War II. Contrary to the popular belief on collaboration, anticommunism in the Netherlands led to close Dutch-German collaboration and prewar arrests of Marxists and Jews.
Jan Herman Brinks examines the Dutch myth of resistance and finds collaboration with the Nazis went right to the top.
Careful readers of the compelling diary of Anne Frank might notice
Response to assaultfish
The simple question was “Where are the Good Duth”. We found on good answer…the rest was all defense of why there was no Nazi colloboration, why other third world countries are bad etc etc.
1) The comment was about reparations for colonialism. $150 Trillion is the bill for British occupation of lands.This bill is being carefully kept. One day Britian will pay….when it is most vulnerable. Laugh it off for now with a “bitter”!
2) Big Gora sahib bahadur. Nothing ot offend you but this site is not to imporve my credability or try to convince you or other colonialists who want to forget their past deeds under the cloak of democracy or Freedom of Speech.
3) “I you were to actually look at what the current political climate in the UK is like, you wouldn’t make such a statement.” We are tlaking about hte current political climate in Britain. We have seen worse out of Denmark and Amsterdam…and may we add London too. Mr. Powell’s racism lives in the hearts and minds of many if not all Brits. It is genetic. Kipling said it best when he urged Brits to carry “the White man’s burden” and civilize and Christianize the “natives” (as you referred to the populaitons. Nothing surprises us. Britian defeated out of Afghanistan and Iraq is back, and will continue to be defeated. Remember Maiwind? They don’t teach Maiwind in Oxbridge or at Eaton and Harrow anymore!…the results are clear…repitition of the same errors of history.
4)This was a humerous article (http://rupeenews.com/2008/01/29/geert-wilders-inc-inaugerating-more-energy-efficient-ovens-for-muslims-older-nazi-models-not-environmentally-friendly-new-models-have-a-separate-compartment-for-burning-books-interview-with-herr-r/) which was posted on many Dutch humor sites by me. It was a fake interview with Mr. Dutch….a lot of people laughed.
BTW: I was born that way. Your English isn’t so good either. What’s your excuse?
This is a tongue-in-cheek article rather sarcastic and cynical but on the humerous side. It was posted on Dutch humor sites. http://rupeenews.com/2008/01/29/geert-wilders-muslims-support-10-point-plan-to-stop-islamaization-of-europe/
5) The British Empire was not a walk in the park. History is history. You tried to say you are not Dutch but English. The English colonialists weren’t any better
5a) The mission is not to create goodwill. We leave that to people like Geert Wilders and the stupid Dansh.
6) I didn’t see him burn a Qu’ran?….ahem ahem! so what he has been saying about the Holy book are eulogies! OK! Are you serious? His is “flaming” the Quran everyday.
7) One of the articles was on Mr. Wilders creating new more efficinet Duch ovens. It was morbid humor. But you didn’t get it. Thats OK!
8) These new artilces were about Fitna and “Where are the good Dutch”. Anyway “Freedom of Speech” in Holland is a farce. All the articles have been taken down from the Dutch sites as if on cue. All my articles have been censored and the author has been banned. Ha! ha! Ha!
9)” … Diana wasn’t a queen.” She is the Queen of my heart and the heart of millions around the world. Diana was what is good about the British. Diana is what we like about England. Diana represented the best of the British. Her work on mines was fantastic. We like many part of Briton, and hate some parts. We dislike those who killed her.
Response to Mr. Frank:
I wrote a very open letter to you…from the heart.
You did not even read it or you may not have understood it.
We are tlaking about Holland now…not about China, India, Somalia, or Pakistan. Please stick to the subject at hand.
WHERE are the GOOD Dutch?
Also learn some history about the Dutch-Nazi colloboration.
Freedom of speech is a farce. My artilces were censored on most Dutch sites after only one day.
The Dutch could not handle the content.
Response to frank:
I wrote a letter from the heart to you. You ignored it.
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/25/muslim-and-loving-holland-open-letter-to-the-dutch-wilder-mijn-lieve-nederlandse-vriend/
You seem to be nice guy. However you are caught up in this hate and your ideas about other countries are really strange. I guess you have to place blame on others to show your own friends how great Holland is.
We know how good Holland was, how evil Holland was and how Holland is takng a turn for the worse. My article written for your should help you understand our point of view and why we don’t love Holand anymore…not ’till you guys stop provoking Muslims and reject the racists like Geert Wilders.
People like you and Geert Wilders are so dangerous….
Thats the shame. Doesn’t matter where you go, which time or which place, you sadly will allways find people who spread hate. And we just only can hope that not enough will follow those kind of radical people… :/
Response ot simpelzeil:
Are you saying that I do not have the freedom of speech to express my opinion. You must be Dutch! Only a Dutchman can have that sort of logic.
Only White men have the right to “Free Speech”?
Geert Wilders is making the film and spreading hate. What did we do? We just asked “Where are the good Dutch?”
We wrote articles asking the world to send Tulips and Roses to Mr. Wilders.
We also wrote an emotional letter on why Muslims would like to love Holland (like we used to beofre), btu cannot because of Mr. Wilders. We don’t hate Holland, but we cannot love it anymore.
If all this makes us dangerous then God Bless you or May the force be with you.
Was Salaam (peace to you)
Hi,
I’m really enjoying this discussion.
1) Britain will never pay for anything in any way. Why? You accepted independance. You are independant, you are free from the Empire. Act like it. We don’t owe you anything, and you don’t owe us anything.
2) By credibility I meant the integrity of the message you are trying to deliver. See this in contrast with the reactions you are getting from several Dutch people, including the website you posted it on. You are not being taken seriously.
3) I can’t say I’v ever heard of “Maiwind”, the Empire fought many battles. I find it strange though that you bring up a forgotten battle from 1880… I tried google and wikipedia, both came up negative, so it can’t be that important? As far as I know we didn’t “loose” anything, as we are incapable of losing any wars you fight against us. This is not arrogance, this is a fact. I hope you don’t take this the wrong way. We can produce weapons and tactics so horrible you can’t even begin to imagine. I fear this day, the Cold War was enough. You should try fighting with words, as we are doing now. Leave the battles and wars out of this, this is a battle of words.
Again you generalise an entire people. I will not debate with you on this point unless you cease the generalisation.
4) Hard to miss it was sarcastic. Still, it looks very strange that you criticise their English, even though it was not intended. Off the record, the accent you’re using is stereotypical German, not Dutch. The two sound nothing alike. Apart from it being my native tongue, I read a lot of literature. I can safely say there is nothing wrong with my English. Even though I try very hard not to, I do recognize the possibility that there could be a “typo” here and there. If so, I apologize.
5) We keep going around in circles on this subject. I have answered this before. You accepted independance, act like you are independant. You cannot hold us responsible for the economic state your country is in. It’s your country, be proud of it and recognize your own flaws, don’t blame it on far away history. There are numerous former English colonies who are doing tremendously well, like South Africa and India. That can be you, once you break free from the mentality you are in now.
5a) Your “mission” is to provoke, just like the Dutch MP and the Danish *cartoonists*. The generalisation statement applies here.
6) And? I encourage him to criticise certain verses from the Qu’ran that have no place in the modern world. I name the examples of polygamy (Sura 4:3) and certain violent verses, like “Slay them wherever you catch them. (Qur’an 2:191). I oppose these verses, and I do so proudly. I do not codemn the entire Quran, like I said before I truly admire other verses.
7) I can’t remember reading or talking about this joke, and I do not know what you are talking about.
Your articles got removed simply because you broke their terms of use. Like I said before, you mollest national symbols, you wave the swastika all over the place and you spread a message of hate. If they choose to remove your articles for those reasons, that is their right, because it is their website. Freedom of speech does not apply here, because they can ban you for any reason they’d like, they are the administrators of their website, not an official instutite. Welcome to the internet.
9) And she always will be.
The most dutch are good dutch, you’re only too blinded with hate to see that. You are even prepared to give a very sick twist on dutch history. And believe me, with those kinda words you will never find any symphatie on behalf of the dutch.
You are judging all dutch people by some dutch people their actions.
The same as how some people judge all muslims by some muslims their actions.
Can’t you see you are handling this completly wrong? If not, i would also add naive next to dangerous.
p.s. I only believe in myself and my beloved and nowadays that believe gets stronger and stronger. cheers
Response to assaultfish:
I am glad you are enjoying this discussion. You must be surprised that others outside England have read Kipling, Byron, Shakespeare and enjoy many British things. See interfaith efforts on this site also. For a serious discussion on Islam and Nethrlands see the folloing articles: Europe: Muslim Integration and separatism lessons learned from the British Raj
1) http://rupeenews.com/moins-articles/pakistan-and-america-what-is-not-known-and-what-they-wont-tell-you/pakistan-the-new-pressler-amendment-should-be-countered-with-request-for-a-marshall-plan-for-pakistan/hey-brits-heres-a-bill-to-chew-on-british-reparations-for-colonialism/
http://rupeenews.com/2008/01/07/a-peoples-history-of-the-british-empire-compensation-for-colonialism-58-trillion/
They they said they would never leave Hong Kong. De Gaulle said Algeria si France, France is Algeria. Hitler
paid reparations too. Britian will too. Others may also have very destructive weapons. The US had fantastic weapons in Vietnam!
2) You are assuming that I want to be taken seriously? You know what they say when you assume something. (make an ass-u-me)
3) There are several articles on British defeats in Afghanistan and Iraq. Doesn’t anyone ever read in Britian anymore? On my last visit I noticed that the culture of fluff had taken over the great BBC also. I understand and have written many articles on this decline of British news and education. Read Arnett, Fisk, and “Blood has not dried”. I will post one links here. More later.
http://rupeenews.com/2008/02/07/nato-lessons1880-uk-defeat-at-maiwind-afghanistan-trained-sabateurs-may-defect-drones-sabotaging-peace-may-create-blowback/
I guess Curzon withdrew from the Oxus back to the Indus for a picnic? Becuase they don’t teach you your own history, you make the same mistakes again and again in Afghansitan.
4) So you guessed it was a “German accent” very clever of you. Sherlock Holmes would be proud of you Watson. Sir Conon Dolyle would have made a star out of you man. That was exactly the point…how many times do you see repeated …”V r not German”. I am surprised that Brits themselves cannot notice the nuances of English. BTW I competed worldwide with Brits and others in my “O” levels (Cambridge) and got a “1″ 40 years ago. After two masters and a degree in history and two in engineering, it was funny that you said stuff about my English!…..ha ha ha. I have taught many Brits. This blog is written at 4th grade level….my research articles have a different vocabulary.
5) No one holds you responsible for the plight of the economy in the USA. We got our independence 200 years ago and are proud of our nation. Thanks for asking though. God Bless America!
6) Polygamy is allowed by the Quran and also by the Torah and I challenge you to show me a verse from the Bibile that prohibts it. David and Soloman had many wives. Even Abraham had two wives. Just picking on the Quran is unfair. On the Qur’an 2:191). ..be fair and READ THE ENTIRE verse…not jsugt a fragment…read the verse before and after…and find the context….also please note the SEVERE RESTRICTIONS …when the command is given..IF the yattack you, throw you out of your homes…THEN…..even then if they change their mind be mericiful….be fair read the entire verse and do me a favor, if you have any sense of traditional justice and fairplay don’t bank on the internet translations…many have been corrupted and many have been posted by Islamphobes…read Mohaamd Asad’s translation…buy it or look it up…read the foot notes…also compare to Biblical passage which I post here. http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/27/dutch-geert-wilders-should-ban-these-books-also/
Don’t they teach you the Bible? Deutronomy, Numbers, and Paul’s writings about the Jews…the list is long.
you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies . . . Thus you shall do to all of the cities which are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here.
But in the cities of these people that the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and Jebusites, . . . (Deuteronomy 20:10-18)
Know, therefore, that only the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps His covenant and steadfast love to those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations and requites to their faith those who hate him, by destroying them – never slow with those who reject Him, but requiting them instantly. Therefore, observe faithfully the instruction-the laws and the rules – with which I charge you today. (Deuteronomy 7:6-12
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you.You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
Response to frank:
I wrote a letter from the heart to you. You ignored it.
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/25/muslim-and-loving-holland-open-letter-to-the-dutch-wilder-mijn-lieve-nederlandse-vriend/
You seem to be nice guy. However you are caught up in this hate and your ideas about other countries are really strange. I guess you have to place blame on others to show your own friends how great Holland is.
We know how good Holland was, how evil Holland was and how Holland is takng a turn for the worse. My article written for your should help you understand our point of view and why we don’t love Holand anymore…not ’till you guys stop provoking Muslims and reject the racists like Geert Wilders.
Okey, i can understand why you feel so bad. It’s not nice to hear bad things about something you like. When i say i dont like the islam in my country, you are hurt and maybe you feel hate against me. If you say i want to fuck your girlfriend. That will hurt me. In my heart i want to punch you in your face, but at the end i wont do it because, its an opinion. Something that is going on in your mind. You can’t help what is going on in your mind, so you are allowed to say it. So Geert Wilders can say what ever he wants in Holland. So can you. So can my momma so can a muslim do that. If that is the reason why you can’t love Holland anymore because there is someone who has a differen opinion? Let them have their opinion, let me have my opinion, you will have yours…
You are right that we are talking about Holland right now, about Geert Wilders. The movie is on the internet, it is a movie with facts. And your hate grows and grows.. Watch the movie, i expect that you will say no to the things in the movie that happened in the name of Allah.
I did read your letter. But a individual specific story about that you met a girl on a holiday is not very impressive, sorry to say that. Again it is my opinion. You talk about old men and other people that helped you, they may have had the same opinion as Geert Wilders, but they still helped you. Did you think about that? The point is, you cant take any critism like Christian people can. They just say, well thats your opininion. Why cant you say that? Maybe because your own country have no freedom of speech at all? You say muslims dont buy the freedom of speech. Im sorry to say, but that is your problem, this is just the way how we are and want to be in Holland.
I know Muslims dont make fun of Jesus. But many people do, there is one cartoon of Mohammed, there 1000 of cartoons about the Bible, Jesus, Judas you name it. And then there were no riots.. Then i wonder myself what is the difference between this too, can the Christians take criticism and the Muslims not?
You feel very attacked by Holland, you should not feel that way, you can read your koran and honour Allah your whole life, so what is your problem. Holland is even helping your country in many way’s like i said before on this website.
But you must understand, that when people come to you and tell you they are becoming the boss of Holland, and when they are muslims and say they are proud at it you if you were a dutch man you wouldnt like that either. If you were a dutch man i think you would not like that a 7% of muslims take place over 80% in the prisons. And that there still are very many criminals in the streets. In my opinion should Holland be for Holland people, Pakistan for Pakistan people, Morocco for Moroccain people, France for French people and Indonesia for Indonesian people.
At last i need to say this, you say your article was banend from every dutch website. There are enough multi-cultiralism websites in Holland that sure would not bann you. People can also see your letter as Spam and bann you. You made a Dutch flag and with Paint you write some word as Fake Freedom Speech and Censored on it. Are you really 50 years old? You can give your opinion but don’t be childish in that way. Another thing, Monkey’s never lived in Holland i dont understand why you associate Monkey’s with dutch people. Another thing, i said it once before, but you didnt reacted on it.. Why have you put an Italian picture with Nazi-Sympathisants on this website. You can clearly see a Italian flag, and the photographer has an Italian name. Allessandra Tarantino.
Please, think over your opinion. Think again about Holland. But again, it is only your opinion. It would be better to help your own country first and then look to other country’s dont you think either?
Greetz, Frank just take a Dutch beer it is better than German beer. Ask the Americans ;-)
Starting with the last point, I am an American and I disagree with you. German is better!
I may take down the Italian picture and will delete the letter I wrote to you….it was not meant to impress you. Nothing will. anyway, it was a mistake.
I agree with you. You are right. Those people may be racists at heart. I also do not think there are any good Dutch anymore.
The movie is out. It is nothing new. Exceprts have been taken out of context. I put the context and will add Biblical and Torah verses to it.
Enlgihtened Eureopeans massacred 15 million in the First Triabal War of Eureope (WW1), and 50 million people in the 2nd Triabl Wars (WW2). Hitler troops and Nazi belts said “God is on our side”. Enlgihtened Europe also killed millions during he Crusades, and colinialism.
Anyone who mentions God is not Muslim, just like everyone who mentions God may not be a Chsiristian. OBL was trained by the CIA and so were the Taliban. They used to be invited to the WHite House. See article on this site with picutres with Reagan. Michael Moore in his movies shows the Taliban in President Bush’s Texas ranch also. It is not so simple
I and more than 40% of my fellow-countrymen Americans do not believe that the full story of 9/11 has been told. There are too many wholes in the story. Go to BBC and do a search on Hijackers. BBC found 9 of them alive. Too many questions have not been asnswered that were asked by “Loose Change.” Check it out!
Dutch is for Dutch. How many generations will you go back. You will strip them of their citizenship and send them back. Is this based on ethnicity or passports? Just curious. Ayan Hirsi is OK! As long as you are anti-Muslim you are ok. Muslims not OK.What about Germans and French in Holland. Are you going to send them back also. This is what the Nazis used to say.
You never responded to Dutch collaboration with Nazis. A new article is on the site.
America the land of the free is for everyone! God Bless my land!
You compalin about Africans and Muslims in Holland. Also what do you say about Blood Diamonds. Are you going to end exploiting the Africans and stop the African trade…of course not. All you want is their diamonds, you dont want the Africans…..in America we call it racism.
Anyway, Holland will get what it deserves. Wheather you pack off all the Muslims to Africa or you learn multi-culturalism, it is up to you.
When we meet people like you it makes us realize how great America is—-God Bless America!
Cheers
PS: I guess they don’t teach you anything in school. These are Dutch monkeys! Check with the Indonesians!
Damn.
You do have a lot of time on your hands, to keep defending your bigot opinion. You remind me of a boy with his fingers in his ears, repeating what he wants to be true.
Anyway, obviously my chosen name (“dutchbigot’) is ironically replying your post. Somewhere you say, you don’t need English to be intelligent, thereby indicating that you are intelligent. You never seem to prove it.
Here in the last post, you say you are an American? Living in the land of the free? If that is what you truly believe, I say: read this article and tell me how free the USA is.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment
Also, as it has been pointed out; Your posts are banned from Dutch fora because of the Swastika’s. Have you never heard from Godwin’s Law?
Anyway, good luck getting enlightend
As much as I dislike Wilders, this article just won’t do. Your babelfish based knowledge of the Dutch is depressing.
The only way to make the world a better place is by praying to God ,
to help you become a better person.
A human can not be good by himself ,
he need Gods love and help and forgiveness time after time.
We should not hate and be violant,
but pray for those who hate us.
That God may touch them and that they may open their hearts to him.
We are all Gods children ,
all of us ,
and we should respect that when we meet others.
There are different ways we serve God ,
and the bible and koran,
both say its up to God ,
to disite who is wrong or right.
The bible allso says:
to turn your head when someone hits you,
and offer him the other side of your face ,
so he can hit you again.
And if someone takes someting from,
you to give him even more.
Offcourse we are just human and most of us can not do this.
But we can try our best to love our neighbour like we love our selves .
And pray to God make it posible for us to do that.
Now that was a little religion, totaly different from the law of the land.
In Holland state and religion are 2 different things.
Laws are not made perse by christians here but by all kinds of people.
The church works via christians but not as a state body it is a body in itself going out in the world to do what is has to do and the only thing it has to do is love.
Christians are to live by the law of the land as long as it does not ask them to do anything against their religious believes.
They should speak up about injustice and social problems but they do not make laws.
They are not responcible for the social structure in the land but they are there to help out where the law and social structure fail to take care of the people.
Most important is however not that we do good most important is that we love God and we love others like we love ourselves.
holland is a tollerant country in the world, so does indonesia. i always serve any tourist no matter what their religion, jews, moslem, christian or any observants are human like us, they have the right to live and to enjoy their life. we all are brothers and sisters
Holland …and tolerant?!?!
Ha! Ha! Ha! It has never been tolerant. It was and always has been a racist country. Holland supported the Nazis and deported thousands of innocent Dutch citizens who happened to be Jewish to the death camps.
Holland killed milions of Indonesians and tried to keep it as a colony. We have three articles on this subject
Supporting the SOIE
Fitna here and the multiple response on this site
Geert Wilders anti-Quran film. Silence will be the best response
Dutch and Geert Wilders should ban these holy books too
Europe: Muslim Integration and separatism lessons learned from the British Raj
Send Tulips to Geert Wilders
Muslims support SOIEs efforts to eliminate Islamic influences from Europe
“Fitna” Rebuttal to Geert Wilders. Refuting the Dutch Nazis
God bless Geert Wilders!
>>Miss “B”: God Bless you. Nothing new about racism in Holland. The Dutch supported the Nazis in exterminating loyal and patriotic Netherland citizens who happened to be Jewish. THousands were sent to death camps. Holland also brutally colonized Indinesia. The sentiments that you express are typical of a racist society that is increasingly frustrated at losing WW2 and now being marginalized the liberal Dutch. We feel sorry for your plight. We are also sure, you will continue on your mission. God Bless Geert and God Bless you.
it is moments like these that we know how good America is. God Bless America. No one in America can preach blatent racism.
>>Miss “B”: God Bless you. Nothing new about racism in Holland. The Dutch supported the Nazis in exterminating loyal and patriotic Netherland citizens who happened to be Jewish. THousands were sent to death camps. Holland also brutally colonized Indinesia. The sentiments that you express are typical of a racist society that is increasingly frustrated at losing WW2 and now being marginalized the liberal Dutch. We feel sorry for your plight. We are also sure, you will continue on your mission. God Bless Geert and God Bless you.
it is moments like these that we know how good America is. God Bless America. No one in America can preach blatent racism.
i don’t mean to talk about the past, let bygones be bygones .. i’m sure dutch will feel sorry for what their government did in the past, the most important thing is how to make our thinking grown up. and believe that we are not children any more
the good Dutch are in plain site, fighting for their blood and land.
WIsh the “Good Dutch” would take off their invisible capes and show the world what they are doing!
How many of the good Dutch are there? One or two. Since you used a plural, we will give you the benifit of the doubt and assume that it is two. We can certainly put a “missing persons report” in Interpol, because both the Good Dutch are in hiding!
Your country for this decade has been iconized by Geert Wilders just like last century it was characterized by the Dutch Waffen SS and deportaiton of the Jews from Amsterdam to Dachao etc.
What the hell is this? Every few paragraphs I catch something that looks like a fact, but most of it is just flaming, including the comments!
Okay, people are dicks. Some prick made a movie that’s offensive to an ethnic group. GROW SOME SKIN already. Just as much as an open posture is necessary for mutual rapport, so too is the patience to withstand seemingly meaningless abuse.
The fact is, individually, I’m probably less than 50% for “people I’ve helped” vs. “people I’ve pissed off.” And that sucks. But I want to believe that as I have done my best to forgive what I imagined as insults, so too have people done for me. And let me tell you, in America we’re ALL assholes and we ALL offend and generalize each other. The important thing is to remember that we’re all people, we were all born naked and screaming, and we live too short a time to waste even a second on pissing and screaming at each other.
Personally, I feel that just about everyone who has contributed to this article has expressed both compassion and hatred. Way to go, humans. I’m with you, and I’d be a fool to say I don’t understand your sentiment. What can we do to -understand- each other? Enough projecting motivations and imagined intentions onto the other, just listen for a bit. I bet that if you gave up on generalizations and cognitive biases, and focused individually on the common mystery of the people around you, you might be surprised to find out that we agree more than we don’t.
On behalf of all of the people who we’ve heard have killed and died in history, I sincerely apologize. I know that when they were children they might not have intended their lives to turn out that way, nor for ours to be shaped by such as well. But now’s not the time for that. How about we ignore this retarded movie and go do something else, like have a beer together or something? The Internet’s boring anyway.
Cheers
Thank you for your feedback. We appreciate it. You hit the nail on the head ” if you gave up on generalizations and cognitive biases, and focused individually on the common mystery of the people around you”
We agree.
Generalization does not produce good results. Cognitive biases are usually inaccurate.
The mysteries of people around you INCLUDE Muslims.
When the Dutch read about how the world sees them maybe this provokative piece may force the Dutch into thinking–how inane is it to stereo-type 1.3 Billion Muslims of the world.
Maybe the good Dutch can spread this message.
“The Good Dutch”? We don’t see any!
LOL nice to blame it on one country. politics and the general population are two things and the are good people and bad people. I also think the politics in this country are goinig to childs play. Still 10% of our country isnt from dutch orgin. We pay tax and they also have the nice live insarance and the other good stuff. you can say that the people cannot agianst the flow of immigrants. the live here around 16millon people on small space and most of them in the 4 major citys amsterdam, rotterdam, utrecht and den haag and most of these city live a lot of immergrants th people cant stand it so geert wilders wat those people to vote on him. I you can make profit with a subject lets do it then. Still people want to have there own country remain dutch we havent fight 80 years agians spain for independence for nothing
Good dutch people are sick and tired of the people that come to our country and abuse the dutch hospitality. If you dont like the politics and the attitude of the ”Bad dutch people” why dont you leave then? Talking aboutthat the dutch killed all those people in Indonesia….hmmmm, look what those Indonesians are doing to those people in papoea, new guinea….why dont you tell about what your ”good indonesian people” are doing there….or what they did in world war 2….being friendly with the japanese….and killed the molukkers….I wonder why the ”bad dutch people” are sick and tired of you people cryingand abusing our social benefits…I bet it is so much better in those moslim countries, they treat their one people so wonderful……
Steve: Thank you for visiting our website and leaving your ideas. We vehemently disagree, but your have a right to your opinion, and we will publish your comments.
The world knows the truth about the Dutch…and the “Good Dutch”…we are still looking.
Holland is one of the best examples of bigotry and hatred on the planet.
“Good Ducht” cannot support racism and bigotry based on Hatred. The Good Dutch would accept responsibility for historical wrongs and current misdeeds.
Your Blood Diamond Trade is the worst example of horrible man’s inhumnity towards fellow man.
You exported your violence to the innocent across Africa and Asia.You killed 15 million of your own in WW1, and 55 million of your own in WW2. Now you parrot “Mein Kemph” ideas in your comments. Hitler said the same things against the Jews, the gays, the gypsies, and the handicapped the most vulnerable sections of society (made vulnerable by systematic discrimination)
Justifying racial genocide, a violent Nazi past, a horrendous history of cruel colonialism in Indonesia and South Africa and systemic and institutionalized discrimination cannot be justified by what is going on societies that the Dutch destroyed and sucked for hundreds of years.
The Dutch totally destroyed the society in Indonesia and perpetuated one of the worst crimes of humanity in South Africa. The people of Asia and Africa REJECTED the Netherlands and its imposed rule. Then when the countries wanted independence the Dutch murdered millions of innocent Indonesians who did not want to be part of the “Dutch paradise”.
Today the Neo-Nazi movement in Holland is a lightning rod for bigots all over Europe.
There is something wrong within your society and the societies next to you which continue to create monsters like Hitler and others. Every crackpot in the Europe that bases his ideology on hate Apatheid, Racism, Anti-Semtism and Islamphobia finds a good audience in the cesspool of degradation in Amsterdam and the vicinity.
Best Regards,
Moin
The Dutch businesses import the poor of the poor to use and abuse them in Holland, and at the slightest excuse leave the immigrants to fend for themselves–now islated and far from home (which the Dutch destoryed for hundreds of years).
When Rupee News posted articles exposing all of this on Dutch Board–they were all censored and we were eventually banned…exposing the hollowness of the claim of freedom of speech.
Maybe there are none. Rupee News was looking for a few good Dutchmen. We are still looking!
Thank you for showing the world exactly [insults delted]some people can be-like you.
At first; you do not have a single clue of what is going on in the Netherlands-that becomes very and painfully clear.
One thing at first; we, the Dutch, have never-and WILL never give a rat’s @ss about what you or the rest of the world think. In our country, as the ONLY one in the world, everyone is EQUAL-is that so in yóur states? And answer without lying.. (your Sheiks own hundreds of nonsense-cars-the people can’t get prper schooling..)
The world thinks of us as…how does the world think, regarding Múslims, then? Who are the ONLY kind of humans, still living in a fictional world of long, long ago? Stoning women because a MAN raped them? Homosexuals, because they’re gáy? The free world thinks of you people as extremists, and you yourselves are provinding the world, day after day, with new reasons as to whý we should regard to your kind as such.
The Dútch ‘ruined’ your countries? Bull. Until the 1500′s you were the most advanced nations worldwide-until the repressive version of the recent Islam kicked in; since then, the distance between FREEthinking West and religious surpressed East got larger by the day-that is why most people in the West have comfortabel lives, and you are not. Also; which country in the WORLD has made such large payments every year to help countries in Africa, Asia, etc.
What are Muslimstates doing to help the poor worldwide? Hów much do théy spend on the poor worldwide? Only buying even BIGGER pimp-cars, buildings, etc. while their own people do not even have SCHOOLS, or some wealth in any form. Thát’s good? Pff. You do not seem so concerned by African Muslims slaugthering women, children etc. in Ruanda etc.? -and regarding ‘abusing’ immigrants? Théy abuse ús! An immigrant comes here-does NOT get a job, but goes to cityhall to get wellfare-and never éver will they get a job to repay their new homecountry. Parasite, is the correct term? You are speaking without ány knowledge-that makes me wonder about your intelligence. Or is the only meaning to sow even móre hate into the world? Please go get a life-and admit on your homepage, that you only have ‘secondhand’ info on which you try to make an oppinion.
Everyone with ány knowledge regarding our land, will foul his pants laughing at what hateful lies and propaganda you spread. Nazi’s? The LEFT-wing dominates this country-and hás done so since the ’70′s”illusionist. The form the biggest part in the govenment-local and national. By the way- Nazism and Islam fit better-or have you forgotten the meetings between Hitler and the Grand-Mufti of Jeruzalem, in the ’40′s? Not to denie-history, pictures and so on are definitive. You-not we- shared the same hate against Jews and so on. Hollowness of freedom of speech? Who are the ones screaming death to the Jews nowadays on our streets? Muslims. And if a bórn Dutch person shouts anything against Islam, he will be arrested. In practice, a Muslim can say ANYTHING here-wé can’t even reply. Go create peace in your own countries, create wealth for ALL inhabitants of your countries, buy some technology from us-and who knows? In about some hundred years you too can live like us. Free of religious dictatorship, free in every life-choice, and so on.
I wish you luck.
Mostly because all of the herefor mentioned things can be bought-but a brain is given buy birth-and you are in desperated need of one. You really, really talk nonsense about our country. Maybe you are just mad, because you are one of three people who did NOT get a licence to get a free life on our expence? And stop living in the past-or can we lay claims regarding the evil deeds of the Ottomans? Until 1683 they demolished large parts of Europe? ‘Logic’ like that is futile. Or will you Muslims make up with the Armenians? The Kurds? First wipe your own street-before pointing to another; but that makes life easy for your kind, is it not? Be angry about all but yourselves; then you have an excuse for personal failing…’it’s not our fault; the ‘evil’ dutch/ West/ America/ Aliens from Mars did it’..
Good Dutch? Send us GOOD Muslims, so we can learn to think that not all are primitive. Buy some books (paper with letters on them) about our country, learn the TRUE history, come live here for about tebn years-and THEN you will have knówledge about what your are talking about. By the way-if you are claiming that all Dutch are ‘racist’-who is discriminating, then? Excactly. [insults delted]
Mr. Frisii:
I think you are holding back. Did you take your Prosiac today? Your writings informs us that you are a bit down today. Did the bong not work today? Where is ze passion unt the high decibel level.
Zeig Heil! Heil Geert!
Please feel free to really tell us and the world how you really feel about Muslims, Islam and third world and the former Dutch colonies (South Africa, Indonesia etc.).
Heil 4th Reich?
We will save this diatribe as a testament to all that the Netherlands today stands for:
1) Bigotry
2) Anti-Semitism
3) Islamphobia
4) Hatred of all 3rd world
Rupee News has been looking for the good Dutch. We still haven’t found any!
Geert Wilders is NOT the voice of our people. What he says is most certainly NOT always what the Dutch think. He may have a few points that are linked indirectly to Islam, but his IMO irrational attacks on Islam and his movie Fitna are just not right and bizarre. And people generally (atleast I hope) know that. I know a couple of muslims I can get along with perfectly fine.
Don’t pretend the Dutch the most evil people on earth.
During the age of colonialism people thought differently about things. It was common practice. That was then. Here is now. Different mindset.
In Indonesia local princes were doing the exact same to their own people prior to Dutch involvement and conquest in the late 18th -19th century.
That’s what’s their society was based on: suppression and hierarchy. But apparently Western education we brought to Indonesia apparently had awoken the will of freedom of the people, equality and democracy. If we hadn’t come here, you’d probably have been living a lot longer under suppression of local princes or another colonial power.
In WW2 the Dutch weren’t very fond of the Germans. Especially not in the later years of the war. You shouldn’t act as if all Dutch people collaborated with the Germans. That’s not what happened here at all. And besides not all Germans were bad. And also not all muslims are bad.
Just relax. Your hate-sewing posts and pics are not necessary to make your point. in fact it makes it look childish and irrational. And IMO you’re already being irrational.
Relax.
Our aticle is simply looking for a few good Dutch. Our search is on. A society that nurtures the likes of Geert Wilders has something to explain. Our pictures are noting compared to the stuff the freedom party has spread around the world. The Neo Nazi presence in the Dutch parliament is ample proof that the Nazi presence has not wilted away.
A recent news item says that the the Dutch are trying Muslims when they produced a cartoon. Isn’t this bias.
An Arab organisation is to be put on trial in the Netherlands over its publication of a cartoon deemed offensive to Jews, prosecutors say.
The cartoon, published by the Arab European League (AEL) on its website, questions the Holocaust.
It said the decision to prosecute illustrated bias against Muslims.
It said the same standards were not applied to the Dutch MP Geert Wilders, who made a film including cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.
Last month prosecutors said they would not put the far-right MP on trial for distributing the controversial Danish cartoons, which caused a storm of protest after their publication in 2005.
AEL chairman Abdoulmouthalib Bouzerda said the charges proved “what Muslims have been saying for decades”.
“Freedom of expression is only a pretext to make life bitter for Muslims… and if [they] try to bring this hypocrisy to light, that right is denied them.”
The AEL says it does not deny the facts of the Holocaust but posted the cartoon as an “act of civil disobedience”.
well said Razor
the way maoin accuses dutch it can be said the same about pakistan
all pakistanis are terrorist, and taliban, let ect ect
but that would not be right, as there are decent pakistanis,
he is ignorant, he thinks every body in germany or holland supports hitlers ideology,
he is not aware how many germany and dutch were killed by nazis,
he should check out the the RAF NOW MANY PILOTS WERE FROM HOLLAND,
ITS LIKE SAYING ALL IRAQS were saddam supporters, or all pakistanis were Zia Ul Haq supporter who introduced all this racist laws where christians are killed by the dozens without and fear of law
check mrs Asma Jehangir reports she is a true humanist and a pakistani
and we will know how humane society pakistan really is
4th reich indeed, the true follower of this ideology are the sunni terrorist in pakistn, wipe ot shias, christian, hindusm sikhs ect and establish a chaliphate ditto as hiters country of aryans just the actors are different
long live the free world based on democracy
richie rodrigues
ciao
richie rodrigues
oh and i missed an important point, we can say the dutch went to java ect and slaughtred during colonial times
but now theis muslim immigratnt who are going to holland, either the dutch are comming to pakistan or some other islamic countries and kidnapping themto holland,
bec i for one would not go to holland if i was so openely dicrminated ect unless yes unless my life there would be better then in the country i live, or my home country
now if they are not kidnapped why do they not leave hollan and go back to their countries in africa or asia ect bec they know they will starve and their own govt will naot even care a damn about them , no dole no education, ect and then their children will join al qeeda, taliban ect
its simple when i was in an islamic country i had to follow their rules, no eating during ramadan , my old mother she is 70 years had to wear a burqa, ect well their country so we followed it, now when they go to west they should follow the wester customs, and intergrate with the society, if they remain aloof and dicreminate agaist the dutch, it is but natural the dutch will discriminate agaisnt them
i still remmember the incident where the famous dutch painter garandson was killed my sunni muslim over the cartons he was knifed in the street,
if the same had happned in pakistan there would be riots, and all belonging to that person minority religion would be slaughterd
but no such things happen in HOLLAND,
why because it is a civil society, with rule of law
JAI BHARAT MATA
rICHIE rODRIGUES
Anything related to the holocaust or anything that smells like holocaust denial is a sensitive case here. Personally I think it’s overreacting. And personally I don’t think the AEL should be prosecuted. But who am I? I think it is hypocrisy. But what can we do? The Jews are apparently privileged because of the special treatment anything related to the holocaust has…
The thing is that politicians and members of the parliament should be allowed to have freedom of speech otherwise how else do they have to do their duty? That’s how our political system in built. People have already tried to procesute him but as far as I’ve understood it either failed or it’s still in process.
I’d say that he should say what he wants to. If people don’t agree with him then he will see the results in the election polls. That’s how it works in here. Shutting someone up is against the principle of democracy.
YES MOIN
THERE IS AN ANTI SEMITISM LAW IN EUROPE, AND IN HOLLAND,
U CANNOT SAY ANYTHING AFFENSIVE TO JEWS, WANT TO KNOW WHY, BECAUSE IT IS A CIVIL SOCIETY,
LIKE U SAID MANY DUTCH WERE INVOLVED IN THE KILLING OF JEWS, BY EPORTING THEM ECT TO NAZI HELD AREAS AND THE NAZI KILLED THEM
AND SINCE IT WAS A WRONG THING AND DUTCH CHRISTIAN PEOPLE HAVE CONCEINCE THEY ARE MAKING AMMENDS, FOR THE SINS OF SOME DUTCH PEOPLE,
BUY TREATING THE JEWS MUCH BETTER THEN THEY WERE DURING THE 1940S, AND PROTECTING THEM AND THEIR INTEREST,
IN CHRISTANITY WE CALL IT PENANCE,
HOPE U UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT,
BUT IN PAKISTAN THE CHRISTIAN ARE BEING RAPED AND KILLED AND THE POLICE DOES NOT EVEN ACCEPT A COMPLAIN,
I GUESS U GUYS DO NOT REALLY KNOW A CIVIL SOCIETY, AND WHEN ONE IS SUDDENLY THROWN INTO A CIVIL SOCIETY U DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ACCEPT IT, AND GET INTO FIGHTS WITH THE LOCALS, SEE FRANCE, UF, HOLLAND ECT
THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY THEY TOO HAVE PROBLEM BUT THEY TRY TO OVERCOME IT, NOT KILL,
AND THEN SAY THEY ARE VITIMISED,
JAI BAHARAT MA
Razor:
Thank you for visiting our site. I am on vacation right now, but decided to answer your comments. Our site used to have very heavey traffic from the Netherlands and we welcome the dailogue. We posted most of our artilces on many Dutch sites.
>>The thing is that politicians and members of the parliament should be allowed to have freedom of speech otherwise how else do they have to do their duty?
Many of our articles (http://rupeenews.com/holland/geert-wilders-page/) were banned from news groups and boards that were clamoring for the “right to free speec”. Our articles simply refuted Mr. Wilder’s claims. All of them are pulished on this site, but when we trid to get them published on the Dutch sites they were banned and censored.
There is a clear hypocracy here. Ban the AEL artilce (and Rupee News articles which did not say anything about Jews) but publish the Wilder article. Amazing logic.
We are sorry but it may make sense to you in the Netherlands, but it does not make sense to us. “What is good for the goose is also good for the gander”. This is why the world thinks of the Dutch people as racist bigots.
We did find some good Dutch, who accepted their hypocracy and admitted that Geert Wildes should not be in the parliament–but the fact remains that the Dutch society continues to produce these Neo-Nazi who are just as bad as the other guys which you mentioned. Both Geert and the extremists are two sides of the same coin.
Was Salaam
Moin
Mr. Rich.
It is very difficult to read your comments becuase there is no syntax or punctuation to it. Most readers including us cannot comprehend half of what you are saying. Kindly do not use CAPS. It is considered shouting and detracts from the reading experience.
Also the conversation between Razor and Moin is part of their ongoing dailogue. Neither have responsded to your comments so you may be intruding
Thank you for your kind consideration.
Dear Amardeep,
since its an open blog i express my views, others need not reply if they do not want to
Regarding caps, i really apologise, it is not done intentional, i am very bad at typing, i just use one finger when i type, and i usually type inbetween when i am free, and someone will walk in and disturb,
henace u will see the nos of spelling mistakes, and half eaten sentences, and appaling grammer
going foward will try to be careful
Ramadan Kareem to u and moin
Rgds
Richie
Dear Rich:
We do not censor content of comments. We do not condone vulgar language and will not accept racism or bigotry or abuse.
As long as you accep the rule, your comments will be posted without any problems.
We encourage different points of view which makes the site richer (pun intended)
Hi there Moin,
Good to know you’re in for a dialogue :) . I hope you enjoy(ed?) your vacation.
The reason your article is banned is most certainly because you’re depicting swastikas. Those are forbidden by Dutch law (unless it’s for educational reasons I believe in books).
But seriously you’re not quite making a point. Rather your article consists of spamming anything that can relate the Dutch to the Nazis without any sense of cohesion/context and without making any sense at all. It’s not very hard to do the same articles on other countries. Basically you’re doing the exact same thing Wilders is doing.
I think that Geert Wilders should be seated in the parliament. It may become even worse if Geert Wilders would be kept outside of the parliament. What if he’s gaining enormous support from the people outside of the parliament. The parliament are the representatives of the people/society and if they would exclude Geert Wilders with a enormous popular support, then what is the meaning of having a parliament? In the most extreme (and unlikely) scenario it could cause a revolution/coup d’etat by Geert Wilders and his supporters. But most likely he would be included in the parliament, win the elections because of the much bigger support he has won while being kept outside of the parliament and then you’ve reached the opposite of what you wanted. If he’s in the parliament then he has to prove himself much more in a discussion or debate with other members of the parliament. And then he may turn out to be a fool or whatever.
And every society produces extremists and fools to a certain extent. We’re not privileged.
Rich is right when he says that it’s all two-way-traffic. If we go to someplace else we would try to adapt to the culture. If not then people will find you weird/different and that’s the very basis of discrimination. And if people aren’t cautious enough it could all end up as a downward spiral…
Peace,
Razor
Razor:
“Swastika”…details details details! Either you are for speech or not..obviously Dutch society is pretty selective.
You equated my articl to that of Gert Wilders–OK! But my articles were banned and Geert is free to say what he wants.
An intelligent person would get the point…that WAS the point of the article.
You can continue to select and elect the Hitlers of the world-we are sure you will find plenty of support from around the world of bigots.
Dutch Nazi past and colonial genocide is a matter of historical record. You cannot hide from it. Just ask the Indonesians and the Jews.
“Adapt the culture”! Achtung! Heil to the New Komandment! Listen to the 4th Reich! “Adapt the culture” is pretty racist and a pretty Hitler like attitude towards the “untermachen”. The Dutch DNA still has remnants of that ideology.
We were looking for a few good Dutch..we are still looking!
Quote from Moinansari
[QUOTE]“Razor:
“Swastika”…details details details! Either you are for speech or not..obviously Dutch society is pretty selective.
You equated my articl to that of Gert Wilders–OK! But my articles were banned and Geert is free to say what he wants.
An intelligent person would get the point…that WAS the point of the article.
You can continue to select and elect the Hitlers of the world-we are sure you will find plenty of support from around the world of bigots.
Dutch Nazi past and colonial genocide is a matter of historical record. You cannot hide from it. Just ask the Indonesians and the Jews.
“Adapt the culture”! Achtung! Heil to the New Komandment! Listen to the 4th Reich! “Adapt the culture” is pretty racist and a pretty Hitler like attitude towards the “untermachen”. The Dutch DNA still has remnants of that ideology.
We were looking for a few good Dutch..we are still looking!”[/QUOTE]
Selective? It’s because it’s simply forbidden by law and also because most people find swastikas disturbing/disgusting.
His movie Fitna is on the very border of what we can allow. Bad taste? Yes. Insulting? Most probably, yes. Citations with no context? Yes, most likely. But he’s deliberately using the grey and vague zone of what is allowed and what is not allowed by law.
Geert Wilders’ articles are written within the rules of law. If they had contained swastikas then it would’ve been banned as well as yours are right now. So I don’t understand your argument of the Dutch being selective… If your articles didn’t contain swastikas they hadn’t been banned.
There’s no need to hide from our colonial past or anything that happened in history. But what you’re doing is selecting the bad chapters of our history and applying that to the present. Should I start pointing out the bad chapters of your peoples’ history? I don’t know where you’re from but surely there’s something that can be found and used in my argument of you being a nazist or racist and monstrous people if I wanted to. But that would be just nonsense because history is history and almost never applies to the present anymore.
Yes adapting to the culture so you can function in that culture. Is that something weird? I’d do that if I would live in an Islamic culture too. There’s nothing 3rd/4th Reich about it at all. And it doesn’t apply to race at all. A black man can be as Dutch as he can be and a white man can be as Muslim or Atheist as he can be.
It has nothing to do with Untermenschen. In theory, people of all races are all equal here in this country. But if you don’t adapt to the culture and function normally people could find you different/weird and that’s where the trouble can start. Racism might play a part for some but by far the most (and I mean by faaaaaaaaar) aren’t racist. It’s about culture and functioning normally that is the rule.
Razor:
Thank you for your feedback.
I do not accept the logic which goes agianst “the right of free speech”. I agree with Voltaire “I disagree with everything you say, but will defend your right to say it”.
You are either for it or against it (free speech). The world see double standards in Dutch society. On the one hand, Holland wears the flag of liberalism. On the other, it votes The Freedom Party into parliament. One the one hand your country gives aid to the poor, on the other hand Holland nurtures and protects Islamphobia.
Your flag shows the colors of Fraternity, Equlity and Liberty. Fraternity should be inclusive–irregardless of national origin of the person or his/her faith. Equality should have equal laws for all, and Liberty should allow all the same rights to brown, black, and white.
Dutch Laws are made by men and women. They did not come from the sky. You site the laws agains the Swastika. A simialr law could also prohibits “symbols” that are abhorrent to Muslims–after all a small percentage of Holland now is Muslim and this will continue to grow. It shouldn’t take a holocaust to ban the Swastika.
Some of our articles did not have the Swastika, but it was banned on Dutch Sites because of its content. We made a concerted effort to find several dozen Dutch sites, and tried to place our articles on them to refute Gerrt Wilders. The Dutch sites eliminated our articles. This was an experiment that was conducted by Rupee News to expose the double standards of the Dutch “Freedom of speech”. Only one type of opinions were tolerated on the sites–those that supported Fitna and Wilders.
The world does not see the Dutch as fair anymore. When I visited Holland, I ran among the Tulips and loved the windmills. I was unaware of the dark side. The bongs smoking liberalism cannot hide the deep rooted Islampbbia in Dutch society. I wrote an emotional article about it–but it was pooh paahed by the Dutch visting our site.
There are code words used by bigots, Neo-Nazis and racists around the world. “Assimilation” is one such code word which can be selectively applied for desired results. The Flanders use it as do the Dutch Belgiums and vice versa. How can you baseline, monitor and enforce assimilation. The only way to assimialte is to teach the children Dutch language (which is happening), and integrate the immigrants into the workforce (which happens naturally). Living assimilation can only happen if every Dutch invites the immigrant to his/her house. The US used forced busing for decades to take the inner city kids to the suburbs and vice versa.
If the Dutch want to learn lessons in assimilation, they should visit Canada–which is the least racist and most hospitable society on earth. The US is also right up there. Things deteriorated dramatically after 911, but with the new adminstrationa human rights are slowly being restored.
“Assimilation” is a slow process. The Dutch Aamish have lived in America in distinct communities for several hundred years–WITHOUT assimilating. Everything that Geert Wilders says about Muslims in Holland can be said about the Aamish and MORE. The Aamish do not integrate with what they call “The English”, their women wear a scarf, and some of them practice polygamy. They are all against technology or freedom of the kids in thier communes. Serious charges of child abuse have been rampant in their “segregated living ‘farms’ “. However a pluralisitic society accepts the differences and celberates these differences.
Muslims in general in the US are fully integrated in the social political and economic life of America. What keeps Dutch Muslims outside the fabric of Netherlands society? One cannot simply blame the poor, downtrodden economic and political refugees who simply want to feed their families. What is Holland doing wrong that it is unable to pull the new immigrans into the social fabric of Holland? These are loaded questions—and Geert has the wrong answers–becuase he balmes everything on the immigrant or “New Dutch”.
New York city was the most segregated city in the world. Jackson Height used to be Jewish, then Italian, then Puerto Rican, now it is a mixture of Indian, Pakistani and Bangaldeshi resident. As waves of immigrants come, they first live in enclaves which they find a bit safer…as economic prosperity gorws, they begin to venture out and mix in with the population.
Amsterdam has a large Jewish population. They dress differently (curlers, dark black suits, yarmaka etc.), and the Ortodox treat women (let me say, in their own way). They do not eat the foods that the Dutch eat (pork etc), and do not drink the Dutch wine (because it is not Kosher) ad many do not marry outside Judaism. This is acceptable in Dutch society becuase the Dutch Jews are rich and powerful and no one can speak out against this segragation.
Is Holland doing anything to integrate these into Dutch society.
There is irony in todays Islamphobia. The real sad thing about this new racism in Europe is that those who suffered the most in WW2 are in the vanguard of the movement against Muslims. One would have thought that those who were the victims of Hilter would not be supporting the new Neo-Nazis–they are. Such is life. The geopolitics allows them to take advantage of the situation. Some of them have forgotten Rev. Noemueller’s famous words. The fire that fuels Islamphobia will surely also encompass Anti-Semitism. In fact most Muslims are semeitic and as such should be protected under the Semetic laws which protect the Jews.
There are double standards in Dutch society–one set of liberal laws for a rich and powerful minotiry, and draconian racist laws for the Muslims. Our article was to initiate dialogue and let the Dutch see the error of their ways. You are right, it is a mirror igame of the Gerrt Narrative by design. It looks at history, and puts together a story about Dutch racism. A case is made why Dutch society is racism–similar to the case made by the Neo-Nazi Islamphobes of Holland. the purpose of the set of articles was to show a mirror to a few good Dutch who have the sense to see what is going on in their midst. Your kooks are as bad as the Al-Qaude kooks–both provide fuel to each others bigotry. The Al-Qade kooks are occupied, poor illiitrate and ignorant. Whats your excuse?
Dutch law that bans Swastiakas should also ban hate speech against Islam. The law that disallows “Holocaust denial” should prohibit bigoted speech against Islam. Dutch law that bans Anti-Semitism should also ban Islamphobia in the exact same way.
The US constitution has set limits on “freedom”. Racism is not covered under free speech. One cannot shout “Fire” in a crowded theater. That is not free speech. that is a crime. Similarly what Geert Wilders says is hate speech and would not be allowed in the US or Canada. That is why he cannot use the US as a pulpit. He could never be a member of the US congress. Americans would neve tolerate the likes of him. The closest the US ever came to this sort of bigot was David Duke about a decade ago–but he was expelled from the republican Party.
By continueing on the current path, Dutch society is the poster boy for the exteremists. The provocation instigates an equal and opposite reaction.
Thanks for the reply.
Freedom of speech is a complicated thing because our law also tells us that we’re not allowed to discriminate so there’s automatically a halt on the supposed freedom of speech.
Discrimination is also troublesome. Of course everyone is discriminating all the time in a more or less innocent way (he has black hair and he has brown hair; that’s an apple and that’s a banana – oh my, I’m discriminating now ;-) ), but when is discrimination moving away from being innocent? If you want to apply for a job you have to meet certain conditions. Is that discrimination or…?
One note though. Geert Wilders’ Freedom Party never got voted into the parliament. He was once part of the VVD and split from them and didn’t give up his seat to the VVD. From that point he created his own party. The elections are next year.
And btw, Wilders will be tried for sewing hatred. The case will start in Januari or Februari next year if I recall correctly. It was on the news today.
Our flag colors precede the fraternité, egalité, liberté explanation originated from the French Revolution and even some time before that. They were the colors of the weapon of our Royal house of Orange-Nassau. The red was orange and the color of our royal family of the House of Orange-Nassau. In fact red and orange were interchangeable up until 1930 I believe.
Yes, I understand your argument concerning the anti-swastika laws. Personally I think it’s absurd to ban a symbol or whatever, because if you ban one symbol that’s insulting to a number of people, then you should ban other symbols too as they might be insulting to people. I think people should grow a skin concerning swastikas and other (insulting) symbols.
If your articles did indeed not all contain swastikas and other stuff related to the holocaust/WW2 then I don’t know. Dutch sites could be any kind of sites. If you post them in a right-extremist site, then you should not expect hospitality and freedom of speech at all. I don’t know how you phrased the sentences in your articles, but attacking the Netherlands all the way and posting it on a Dutch site would especially be instigating. People almost always try to defend their country they’re living in no matter how much they agree or disagree with its policy.
I think it weird to say that the whole world doesn’t see us as fair. Who’s the whole world? Your world perhaps? I remember that Geert Wilders even got paid to pay a visit to the U.S. to give speeches and received lots of applause.
Btw, Dutch Belgium = Flanders. The problem we have in the Netherlands is that children of immigrants have lower scores in school, and have a much higher crime rate, and are often the ones who are unemployed (I can’t tell anything about that though). I do have heard cases in which immigrants even said themselves that they don’t want to have a job because the state was paying them just as much as he himself would have earned with a full-time job. Although I doubt that only immigrants make use of that loophole.
If anything the U.S. certainly is not an example for integration. Racism/discrimination is still very much present. A ‘black man’ still has less opportunities than a ‘white man’. Off course they’re equal to the law and have the same rights, but daily practice says it’s still not quite the case.
The native Americans still aren’t integrated for example.
It’s good that you come up with the Amish as people that don’t integrate. But the Amish are die hard christians in a society with Jewish/christian roots. In the Netherlands there’s the same Jewish/christian roots, but having enclaves of an ever growing muslim population that would even call for a Sharia law in the Netherlands is logically frightening the people a bit. The two are fundamentally incompatible unless those muslims would become moderate (which I think is largely the case in the Netherlands). But there only has to be one extremist muslim that will spoil it for the rest of the moderate muslims. Especially with the various terrorist attacks and threats. I think it’s a difficult situation…
And besides that the U.S. and Canada have a higher set of conditions for (legal) immigration than we have. For immigrating to the U.S. or Canada you need to meet those conditions (education, job etc.) so you can contribute to the society. And as a result you function a lot better in their society and become ‘assimilated’ so to speak. But keep in mind that the U.S. has no welfare state so you have to pay for your healthcare yourself and if you have no job then you get no money from the state. Here in the Netherlands we do have a welfare state so people without a job still get money for a living. If the amount of people with no jobs rises than the costs of the welfare state will rise which have to be paid by a smaller working class… If the trend continues it’s go down hard big time.
And since immigrants are seen as the number one group of unemployed, and considered relatively more criminal, and incompatible with the Jewish/christian culture/society (talking specifically about muslims now) they (the immigrants) are often seen as the ones to blame…
And unfortunately most immigrants in Europe are muslims… It’s unfortunate to say the least.
I completely agree with you that provocation leads to reaction. As do your articles. That’s why I’m defending my country. Hey, it may not be a perfect country, but really what country is?
Razor:
Thanks for your response. We appreciate your candid admisison that the “ban on the Swastika” and “Holocaust denial” is just as wrong as the “ban on the Fitna” and the “ban on the Quran” “ban on the Torah” “Ban on the Bible” etc. None should be banned or all should be banned. If “Holocaust denial” is a crime than racism against Islam should be a crime too. If Anti-Semitism is a crime than Islamaphobia should be a crime too.
If Islamaphobia is allowed than Anti-Semitism should be equally tolerated.
There is truth to some points in your response. When we posted nice articles on the Dutch sites.
(http://www.zimbio.com/The+Qur'an/articles/64/Send+Tulips+Roses+Anti+Quran+Film+maker+Geert) they were also banned–we did not expect a welcome from the extreme right sites, but we posted them there anyway..to expose the “free speech” argument made by most Dutch.
http://www.zimbio.com/The+Netherlands/articles/4/Dutch+react+anti+Holland+provocation+censorship
http://www.zimbio.com/The+Qur'an/articles/90/See+Fitna+Much+ado+nothing+Same+old+Nothing
We follow Geert Wilders closely and news.google.com search on Wilders gives us all the updates automatically.
http://www.zimbio.com/World+Politics/articles/2784/Judgement+day+near+Dutch+bigot+Wilders
http://pakistanledger.com/2009/02/05/every-dog-has-his-day-in-court-wilders-fights-a-losing-battle/
Come on now. Apples and bananas? Give me a break. Discrimination can be felt in the air, seen on the job, and expereinced in housing and the economic life of human beings.
The usual racist arguments against the minorities are the same–abuse of welfare, criminals, free-loaders. This is universal. South Africa used against the Africans to continue Apartheid and the US used it in the 30s against African Americans.
It is the same argument that was used against the “Untermachen”
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/27/the-new-untermenchen-of-geert-wilders-fourth-iv-reich/
SHARIA: There is much nonsense about the so called “sharia” and how it opposes Western values. Please be open to another point of view. If “sharia” means the opression of women, and the murder of men then we all oppose it. But this impression of the ‘sharia” is a comical interpretation of the “sharia”. Muslim Spain enjoyed the much maligned “sharia” from 710-1492, only to be destroyed by the Spanish Inquisition. Andulusia is known for the Jewsh-Christian-Muslim symbiosis (read The Ornament of the World by Maria Rosa Menocal) when all threee Abrahamic religions thrived and worked together in art, cutlure, music and science–and provided seeds to the European renaissnace. There is a large body of evidence by European authors on the origins of the European Renaissance and when it started. Many European authors maintian, that the Renaissance actually started in Muslim Spain and in Muslim Sicily and then got transferred over to Florence—http://rupeenews.com/2008/08/29/safavid-ottoman-mughal-islam-fueled-the-italian-renaissance/
While Christain Spain expelled and murdered Jews and Muslims it was in Muslim Andulusia which had allowed Hasdai Shaprut a Jew to rule as the Prime Minsiter for thirty years. In fact the Jews begged Queen Isabel and King Ferdanand for the continuation of the Sharia–which had guaranteed the growth and nurturing of the Jews (and Christians) in Muslim Spain. It was in Muslim Egypt that Musa Ibn Maimun (Moses Maimonides) a Jew worked as the Surgeon general in the court of Saladdin. All this under the Muslm sharia. If you read the research of John Maksudi he supports the case for the Muslim origins of the Magna Carta and British Common Law (http://rupeenews.com/category/history/british-empire/magna-carta/john-maksudi/). So let us not be swayed by the likes of Rupert Murdock and Geert Widlers on the Sharia.
The “Sharia” has been made out as some evil code out of hell. Please read Karen Armstrong (Muhammad for our Times and History of God). This will show you the truth about ABRAHMIC RELIIGONS.
Your basic premise of excluding Islam from the European Civilization may require some enhancement in understanding. Muhammad never propogated a new religion. He always claimed that it was “Deen e Ibrahimi” (or Abraham’s religion). Please read The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization (Paperback) by Richard W. Bulliet. Islam made out something evil by Wilders is nothing but a synopsis of Judaism and Christianity.
If you follow Geert Wilders, and begin picking out paragraphs out of context from the Quran. I put fitna on this site and wrote several logical and well thought out rebuttals to Fitna on our Geert Wilders Page (perhaps I should start a web site on him). he cherry picked half sentences out of the Quran to make his point. http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/27/muslim-response-to-fitna/
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/28/fitna-rebuttal-to-wilders-refuting-dutch-nazis/
If Geert can Cherry pick, then so can we..here are some quotes from the Bible and the Torah (may God forgive me if I have transgressed)
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/27/dutch-geert-wilders-should-ban-these-books-also/
I may have thrown to much at you. Obviously you are stuck in your paradigm and it may hard to digest an opposing point of view. If so I understand. At least I have planted a seed. If you want it to grow you will have to investigate by reading Bulliet, Armstrong and Menocal ( I have dleiberately used European authors so that they are more platable to you).
Obviously you did not bargain for so much research when you wrote to this site–so I understand if you can’t read all the material…but at least you get our point
Hi moin ansari. Sorry for the awfully late reply. Still I want to reply and keep the discussion going.
The thing is, can you ban fear or hate against anything (Islamaphobia, Anti-Semitism)? Sure you can ban it legally, but is it really practical? All you can do in my opinion is disapproving it.
It’s not that people hate Islam (the way it’s supposed to be). It’s the image that Islam has received in our western society (especially after 9/11 and other terrorist attacks in name of the prophet) that tarnishes the image of the Islam.
I and many others really disapprove that Geert Wilders is attacking Islam itself. He shouldn’t attack Islam, but those terrorists that kill innocent people in the name of Allah.
Razor:
I am amazed that you refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that Islamphobia should have the same protection as Anti-Semitism–even though both Arabs and Jews are from the seame semetic tribes.
Islamphobia didn’t start after 911–this goes on a little bit before that–how about 1098 when the Crusades began– Read all about it in the rhetoric of Martin Luther, and then Spanish Inqisition. Of course then came the colonialists which destoryed the Muslim empires of the Ottomans and the Mughal–turning over the Muslim ruled empires to other peoples.
911 was just another excuse–the PNAC had made plans to attack Iraq in 1998 (pnac.org and see Bob Woodward’s books on Bush).
Read “Orientlaism” by Edward Said ( a Christian ) and please read Noam Chomsky’s (Hegemony or survival) or Howard Zinn’s (Peoples History of the United States)
Your last sentence brings us full circle to the first excahnge and my article. So you blame all Muslims and Islam for the acts of the 19. Why are Muslims not justified to think that when you scratch any Dutch you see a “Geert Wilders”.
What about the daily murder, rape and bombs rained on the incaecerated Iraqis, the occupied Palestinians and the jailed Kashmiris, and the terrorized Afghans? Isn’t this a modern form of Crusaderism?
Quote from Moin Ansari:
“Razor:
I am amazed that you refuse to acknowledge the simple fact that Islamphobia should have the same protection as Anti-Semitism–even though both Arabs and Jews are from the seame semetic tribes.
Islamphobia didn’t start after 911–this goes on a little bit before that–how about 1098 when the Crusades began– Read all about it in the rhetoric of Martin Luther, and then Spanish Inqisition. Of course then came the colonialists which destoryed the Muslim empires of the Ottomans and the Mughal–turning over the Muslim ruled empires to other peoples.
911 was just another excuse–the PNAC had made plans to attack Iraq in 1998 (pnac.org and see Bob Woodward’s books on Bush).
Read “Orientlaism” by Edward Said ( a Christian ) and please read Noam Chomsky’s (Hegemony or survival) or Howard Zinn’s (Peoples History of the United States)
Your last sentence brings us full circle to the first excahnge and my article. So you blame all Muslims and Islam for the acts of the 19. Why are Muslims not justified to think that when you scratch any Dutch you see a “Geert Wilders”.
What about the daily murder, rape and bombs rained on the incaecerated Iraqis, the occupied Palestinians and the jailed Kashmiris, and the terrorized Afghans? Isn’t this a modern form of Crusaderism?”
Being of the same ethnic tribe historically doesn’t mean anything (I highly doubt that they still share the same genes because many Israelites immigrate into Israël from abroad). My point is that neither antisemitism nor Islamaphobia should receive special treatment. What’s next? Special gay treatment? Special women’s treatment? Now that’s discriminating…
No you’re right, Islamaphobia started from maybe the earliest beginnings already, but what I was trying to say is that after 9-11 it increased significantly.
Bush and Iraq is another topic.
With what purpose do I need to read these books? What are you trying to make clear?
I don’t blame Islam or all Muslims. Where did I say that? I explicitly said that I blame those Muslim militants. That’s what by far the most people think anyway. That you THINK you’re seeing Geert Wilders’ face on EVERY Dutchman is your mistake. And btw, I can tell that many people that Geert wilders is popular because he apparently offers
In Iraq it’s hardly a fight between Christian oppressors and Muslims, but rather between Muslims themselves. For the Palestinians blame both Hamas and Israël. Afghanistan is indeed something I’m not happy with either. It could be compared to crusades, yes. And I’m not in favor of them. But these crusades are not in name of Christendom.
Razor:
>> don’t blame Islam or all Muslims (Razor said)
You are a reasonable person. I don’t disagree with everything that you are saying. Thank you for accepting the fact that Islamphobia has existed in Europe for the past 14 centuries. This is what we said in the original article. Past historical practices (Crusades, Inquisition, Martin Luther, Colonialism, Nazisim etc) fuel the Islamophobia today.
I disagree with you that Islamophobia increased after 911. Actually the Spanish Inquisition, and the Crusades and colonialism was much worse than what we see today
“Orientalism” by Edward Said describes the European state of mind on Islam and Muslims
Holland already has a law against Anti-Semitism. You oppose a similar law against Islamaophobia saying that “semitic tribes ay have moved etc). Actually most of the European Jews are non-semetic but that is a different issue altogether.
It all boils down to the following:
1) If many/most/some/any of the Jews are non-Semetic then why would Anti-Semtic laws apply to them. The fact remains that Holland has Anti-Semtic Laws. Why aren’t semetic Muslims covered under Anti-Semetic laws?
2) If you oppose laws against Islamophobia, then you should abolish the Anti-Semtic laws too
3) If you do not want to create privilaged classes then existing Anti-discrimination laws should cover (Jews, Muslims, Women, whatever). The US has general Anti-discrimination laws–but it also has sepcific laws against Anti-Semitism. Laws prevent sexual harassment against women and laws that prevent discrimination against gays and other minorities (black, hispanics).
The world does not know why Geert is popular in Holland…(your sentence traled off into oblivion…please complete it).
SO your answer is that Holland should not pass any laws protecting Muslims–Geert remain popular and blame it all on all Muslims becuase of the 19 men. BTW Bin Laden was trained by the CIA and many other Pakhtuns fighting the USSR were invited to the White House by Ronald Reagan as heroes.
Your knowledge about Iraq is based on Islaamphobia. The Iraqis lived in peace for 1400 years. How is it that right after the US invasion of a modern secular socialistic state which followed the edicts of a Christian Baathist Party all of a sudden had this internacine fighting. Obviously it is all due to the occupation in Iraq and Palestine.
You say that “these Crusades are not in the name of Christiandom”. Perhaps you should read the writings of the Christian Right in the US (to which President Bush was beholden to).
Geert Wilders, and other are saying the same thing only disguised as issues of crime, immigration and culture. Scratch the surface and read between the lines–its still the same steal/snatch the resources of the Non-Christians, civilize them and Christianize them. This was the goal of the Crusades, and of Colonialism as clearly described by Kipling in THE WHITE MAN’S BURDEN.
You should make Islamphobia illegal in Holland, try and lock up Wilders and throw the key away or you can continue to build hatred against Holland.