Beyond Pakistani made JF-17 Thunders & FC-20s: When will PAF acquire and manufacture the J-11s and J-14s?
NEW YORK | RUPEE NEWS | Feb. 24th, 2008 | A grand success story. Pakistan and China designed, prototyped and built the JF-17 Thunder faster than any other aircraft. Pakistan did it in four years–and according to Indian sources “left the Indian Light Combat Aricraft (LCA ) in the dust.” The WD-93 (Russian engine) JF-17 Thunder is now competing with the Korean, Russian and US fighters. Pakistan’s indigenous JF-17 Thunders Fighter Plane
Pakistan has rapidly moved from the design and development stage to deployment and operationalization phases of the JF-17 Thunder and beyond. Pakistan is working with China to improve to the J-10s and the J-11s. Already the Pakistan feedback has paid its dividends in the newer versions of the J-10s and the J-11 and possibly the J-14s (J-xx).
ISLAMABAD – The first squadron of fighter jet JF-17 Thunder, a joint Pakistan-China production, was on Thursday inducted in Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet.
A special ceremony was held for this purpose at PAF airbase near Kamra Aeronautical Complex, about 50km from here. Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman formally received the squadron. In his address, the Air Chief congratulated the nation and said it is a historic day for PAF and entire nation.
JF-17 Thunder aircraft is an advanced multi-role light combat aircraft jointly developed by Chengdu and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex under a strategic collaboration project. The aircraft is designed to be cost-effective and can meet the tactical and strategic needs of the Pakistan Air Force, and various other air forces.
The production facilities have been set up for the aircraft in Pakistan. The first batch of 50 JF-17 Thunder aircraft has been equipped with the Chinese/Pakistani avionics and missiles, while the later aircrafts are to be equipped with more advanced radars and missiles.
France offered Pakistan its RC-400 radar and MBDA MICA missile for the aircraft.
The serial production of JF-17 Thunder has already started and the production capacity would be gradually taken to 25 aircraft per year by 2011.
About 60 per cent of the aircraft’s frame and 80 per cent of its avionics have been manufactured in Pakistan. Khaleej Times, mafzalkhan101@yahoo.com. 19 February 2010.
PAF OWNS ABOUT 400 PLANES GOING TO ABOUT A THOUSAND IN THE NEXT DECADE: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired 18 F-16 of the Block 52 series taking its total to 64, a squadron of jointly produced (China-Pakistan) JF 17 Thunder fighters. It has ordered some 36 J-10B fighters upgraded to the the Super 10– an upgraded version of the J-10 with a locally made Chinese TVC engine (beyond the WS-13). The PAF produced the K-8 trainer and is also working with the Chinese to produce L-15 supersonic trainers.
The “Shaheens” have already ordered eight Erieye AEW&C from Sweden and now owns IL-78 Refueling tankers tankers for mid-flight refueling. The PAF is also producing the AWACs with Chinese help. It has received a dozen S-70 Super Cobra helicopters from the US. The PAFs current published strength is reportedly 383 combat capable aircraft including the older upgraded Chinese A-5, 129 F-7 PG/MG (Chinese revamped version of the MiG-21), nearly 113 upgraded Mirage III/V, some 64-plus F-16 fighters and a squadron of JF-17 of which some 500 are being built locally (25-75 per annum). PAF officials are aiming to finally acquire a whopping 150 J-10Bs from China in the next decade. The PAF is also eyeing the J-14 (J-XX, Chinas’ 5th gen stealth fighter which it calls 4th generation)
Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman was the chief guest on the occasion [of the induction of the 50 JF-17 Thunders into the Pakistan Air Force].
The JF-17 Thunder has the capability to undertake the entire spectrum of offensive as well as defensive missions. It is believed that the JF-17 would not only enhance the combat readiness of PAF but also form its backbone in the future.
Congratulating: While addressing the airmen, Suleman said, “I congratulate the nation and all PAF personnel on this momentous occasion. The formal induction of this aircraft is in line with our resolve to face all challenges with poise and self-confidence. These new state-of-the-art inductions make it imperative that we train hard and prepare well in order to induct and integrate the new systems professionally and safely.” Daily Times. Friday, February 19, 2010
- Pakistani manufactured JF-17 Thunder. Pakistan’s indigenously produced 4th Generation Fighter is being mass produced and exported. The first squadron of the JF-17 Thunder was operationalized in April 2009. On November 23rd, 2009 the first locally produced JF-17 Thunder rolled off the assembly line of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra and was included to the fleet of Pakistan Air Force. This was the first of the 250-500 that will be manufactured in Pakistan.
- Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder Fighter plane: US sanctions and external existe…
- China exporting Y-89 AWAC technology to Pakistan
- Chinese technology exports to Pakistan: JF-17 Thunder, J-10s, J-11s
This success story of developing arms in Pakistan is not limited to the JF-17 Thunder. The Nuclear bomb, the missiles and the tanks were all produced in record time, considering that Pakistan had only one dysfunctional Textile Mill, one dilapidated University, and one archaic Jute Mill in 1947. No other country has come so far in defense production in such a short period of time. It took the Japanese from the Meiji revolution of 1893 to 1940 to produce the deadly aircrafts that devastated Pearl Harbor. The first American missiles and the entire Apollo program was built on Von Braun’s German technology. The Russian program was similarly also based on the German programs. In fact the first V2-Rockets in the Museums in Washington are simply German rocket painted red (for Russia) and red, white and blue for America.
Pakistan’s defence industry contains over 20 major public sector units (PSUs) and over 100 private-sector firms. The majority of major weapons systems production and assembly is undertaken by the state-owned PSUs, while the private-sector supplies parts, components, bladed weapons and field equipment. Major PSUs include the Pakistan Ordnance Factory (POF), Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) and the Pakistan Machine Tool Factory. Multinational presence in Pakistan is limited, although joint production or engineering support in the development of certain armaments has recently occurred with companies such as DCN International and the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group.
In November 2008, Ministry of Defence Production Secretary Shahid Siddiq Tirmizi announced that as many as eight countries have expressed interest in acquiring the newly launched JF-17 Thunder fighter, a China-Pakistan joint venture. Tirmizi expects that 800 or more could be produced once sale agreements have been reached. The Pakistan Air Force has been putting the new jet through its paces with a series of trials and technical evaluations. Other defence products of Pakistani extraction garnering interest in international circles include unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), air defence systems, tank simulators, and anti-tank guided missiles. Tirmizi noted that between 2006 and 2008, Pakistan had exported US$400mn worth of defence products. Live PR
Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan Luo Zhaohui addresses the rollout ceremony of a JF-17 Thunder fighter plane, first of its kind made in Pakistan, at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, some 60 kilometers northwest of the Pakistani capital Islamabad, Nov. 23, 2009. The JF-17, unveiled on Nov. 23, is a kind of advanced multi-role fighter jointly invested and developed by China and Pakistan. (Xinhua/Li Jingchen)
The Pakistanis pushed the Chinese for the JF-17 Thunder design improvement. The Pakistanis have a distinct advantage that the Chinese don’t have. Islamabad has the experience with Western technology, beginning with the F-104, and the F-86 Sabres and ending with the latest F-16s. This has taken the JF-17 Thunder to new technological heights, specially because it has been upgraded with European technological innovation and duplicated Russian and American goodies.
The Pakistan air force wants to develop a “Westernized” version of its Chinese-made JF-17, fitted with European avionics, fire-control radar and weapons systems. The upgraded aircraft is intended not only for domestic service, but also for export.
A team led by ATE—a Paris-based company specializing in integrating systems and weapons onto military aircraft airframes of different origin—is tipped to develop and market the upgraded version of the JF-17 Thunder. The aircraft was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan.
Other partners, according to sources close to the deal, include Thales, Sagem and missile-manufacturer MBDA. Among the losing bidders, they say, are Astrac, a Thales-Sagem joint venture also specialized in retrofits, and Finmeccanica. The winning team would not comment on the selection, which has not been officially announced.
Industry executives say the project has strong backing from the French government, which has adopted a more focused and muscular arms trade policy under the Sarkozy administration.
The upgrade would involve 50 aircraft, plus another 50 on option, that would go into production in 2013, following delivery of the first batch of Pakistani air force JF-17s. The project could be worth up to €1 billion ($1.36 billion), more than double the $500 million that the JF-17 development reputedly cost. French JF-17 Deal Could Anger India, Feb 19, 2010 By Michael A. Taverna Paris
[youtube=http://rupeenews.com/BaH]
The principal target markets for export are in Central Asia and Africa. Any sale would require case-by-case approval by the French government. Up to 400 JF-17s may ultimately be built.
While the exact makeup of the modernization package is not known, it is thought to include Thales RC400 fire- control radar and the MBDA Mica medium-range family of air-to-air missiles, as well as air-to-surface weaponry.
Paris is insisting on a complete package approach to try to protect against leakage of design secrets to China or other unauthorized users. However, Islamabad is also known to be discussing the separate supply of specific additional items, such as South Africa’s A-Darter short-range imaging infrared-guided air-to-air missile. ATE was previously headquartered in South Africa and most of its 400 employees are still based there. French JF-17 Deal Could Anger India, Feb 19, 2010 By Michael A. Taverna Paris
Pakistan is now pushing the frontiers of the J-10s and the J-11s in terms of structural redesign, cockpit improvement, increased thrust power for the engines, Beyond Visual Range and other latest innovations. Thus the end result is a new plane which is vastly superior than what it would have been without Pakistani input and help.
Pakistani Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani (2nd R) sits in the cockpit of a JF-17 Thunder fighter plane, first of its kind made in Pakistan, at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, some 60 kilometers northwest of the Pakistani capital Islamabad, Nov. 23, 2009. The JF-17, unveiled on Nov. 23, is a kind of advanced multi-role fighter jointly invested and developed by China and Pakistan. (Xinhua/Li Jingchen)
Chinese technology exports to Pakistan: JF-17 Thunder, J-10s, J-11s. This alliance has propelled the aircraft manufacturing of China to new levels and given the Pakistanis access to Chinese acumen which it did not have before. JF-17 Thunders
Beyond the JF-17 Thunders. The J-10s etc
Pakistan’s 250 JF-17s, 50 F-16: India’s panicky “concern”.
Pakistan is also producing the cheap Adam car which will compete with Chinese, and Japanese models (http://rupeenews.com/GMK).
Pakistan is in midst of building about 500 JF-17 Thunder fighters, probably one of the biggest build ups of planes (of a single Air Force) in the history of the world. The estimates vary in different publications, but we have ascertained the facts from multiple sources. Our estimates are based upon the number of Russian and Chinese engines (redesigned WS-10A (B) or possibly the WS-15,) that are to be incorporated into the JF-17 Thunders, and the number of blocks (versions) that are planned. This is one of the greatest achievements of the Pakistani government in the past 8 years. This project removes the Pakistani defense from the shackles of foreign governance. One can argue about the comparison with 4th generation American state-of-the-art planes, but this much is clear—the JF-17 Thunder was designed for Pakistan, and it is being produced in Pakistan. Serious efforts are underway to upgrade the plane to new levels.
[youtube=http://rupeenews.com/A4]
…procurement is critical for PAF as it needs a quality high end to counter the larger IAF with her MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MRCA. With a new sensor rich environment dominated by AWACS on both sides and a large number of BVR platforms, higher altitude BVR engagements would become vital. J-10s are ideally suited for such combat given their aerodynamics including low wing loading in an A2A configuration. The instantaneous turn rates achievable on the J-10 (or the Euro canards) are likely to give an advantage in such engagements, as opposed to the high wing loadings on the over-evolved F-16s which were essentially designed for turning dog fights rather than high altitude BVR slash and dash maneuvers.
With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.
The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s. The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair – one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter. Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it. Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it. Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.
The J-10s, F-16s and JF-17s also fit into the AFFDP-2019 requirements. The AFFDP-2019 is the core document on the strategic planning of Pakistan’s armed forces over 15 years. While this document is not available in the public domain, informed sources note that the PAF has been assigned procurement of only single engine combat aircraft. The J-10Ps/FC-20s coupled with the JF-17s and F-16s thus ideally meet these requirements.
In the event that the Indian Air Force decides to procure massive numbers of Western 4.5 generation fighters, beyond the 126 MRCA, while increasing the Su-30MKI numbers and upgrades their MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, the PAF has a clear charted path in increasing JF-17s and FC-20s, having by then set up the infrastructure and training for these planes. Further, the JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation – providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots. Grande Strategy
Many countries with enormous resources and tremendous backing have tried to produce airplanes. The huge failures of the Brazilians (version of the SU 27) and the Israelis (Lavi) are in written in stone. Even the Indian efforts at domestic production of missiles and planes (LCA-Tejas, and other) is checkered with colossal failures. See report on this site by the Indian head of the Airforce. The Indian flying coffins, as well as the first Indian plane are pretty much grounded as is the Indian missile program.
[youtube=http://rupeenews.com/BaH]
The production of JF-17 Thunder is a magnificent example of Concurrent Engineering. The Pakistan JF-Thunder aircraft is going through a major upgrade in avionics, and a switch in engines to a Chinese version of the WD-93 called the WS-13. This is fascinating for all engineers. The airplane is being produced in mass, and the new development is also happening concurrently. Efforts are already underway to produce the WS-13 engines locally, and upgrade the avionics with the latest French, German and Italian technology. Pakistan will export the older versions of the plane to Khazikistan and other countries. An armed Azerbaijan will make it more difficult for Armenia to challenge it. This may change the balance of power in many regions, specially if Sri Lanka gets the JF-17 Thunder. The Sri Lankan Airforce may get an unprecedented advantage over the marauding mercenary terrorists who come over from Indian Tamil-land in increasing numbers. Even though the LTTE has been destroyed with the help of China and Pakistan, the threat from Bharat remains. Pakistan JF-17 Thunders may be sold with a request for a Pakistani base in Sri Lanka.
The PAF is looking to add as much potency as possible, within its budget constraints; shopping for avionics from Western sources to add further potential to its JF-17s and FC-20s. Thus far, Chinese developments have been so rapid that by the time decisions were to be made at the PAF, the Chinese would meet or exceed requirements and the competition at a lower price. It remains to be seen if this can be pulled off again by the Chinese when PAF goes shopping for the next block of JF-17s and the new FC-20s. For the FC-20s, EW, cockpit interface and reliability of the new Chinese AESA radar will play a critical role. The PAF is meanwhile keeping open options with European equivalents, including the M-AESA (Multi-role Active Electronically Scanned Antenna) being developed by Saab and Selex and a French AESA, yet to be revealed. Grande Strategy
Pakistan used the earthquake as the perfect opportunity to gently turn down the offer of 60 F-16s (block 50) to Pakistan and reduced the number of American planes to be purchased. The Pakistanis then further diversified the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). In Pakistani minds, the US is an unreliable arms supplier. Pakistan has suffered many times by American sanctions. President Musharraf and PAF head was invited to China to evaluate China’s latest toy, at the time, the J-10.
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has shown a great deal of interest in the J-10 project as a possible substitute for Western combat aircraft for its high end requirements. The PAF, however, wanted a more modern version. Just as the FC-1s (and before the FC-1, the F-7s) were significantly upgraded due to the PAF’s push for improvements, the J-10 appears to be going through a similar phase. The reason for this is that the PAF has a far closer view of Western technologies and trends and thus can provide deeper insight than more insulated Chinese expertise. The J-10B in all likelihood has had major input from the PAF and is the FC-20 that the PAF has ordered. Grande Strategy
- Now reports are surfacing that China has been able to duplicate the SU-27, the most lethal bird in the air. The Chinese version of the Sukhoi SU-27 (Flanker) is now called the J-11. The Su-30MKI (another derivative of the SU-27), a heavy-class fighter, with the F-16C Block 50, F-16C Block 60, and F-18E/F aircraft is largely theoretical. The American Fighters belong to conceptually different fighter classes and have their own, preferential areas of combat employment. The F-18E/F version, owing to the F/A-18 basic design, features a more pronounced strike-mission capability, while in terms of dimensions, this aircraft is close to the Russian fighter.
The J-10B incorporates a new small ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer and this stabilizer also appears to be longer and ending in a “shark-fin”. The ECM housing is similar to the housing on the JF-17. The two ventral fins are also extended further and are larger irrespective of the shark-fin. The aerodynamic refinements of the longer vertical stabilizer and the ventral fins appear to be a result of the DSI intakes which create greater lateral forces on the aircraft.
The wide angle HUD featured on the J-11Bs seem to have also appeared on the J-10B. While it cannot be confirmed, it appears that the cockpit itself has been redesigned extensively. Other than the new ECM housing on the vertical stabilizer, new MAWs appear on the tail bump. Just below these, curious breaks appear on the fuselage that some observers are referring to as possible formation lights “slime lights”, but expert opinion from a Lockheed Martin source suggest that they are FLIR sensors. A redesigned satellite communication unit appears right behind the cockpit.
A retractable refueling probe is likely, given the development of the J-10 thus far, and is possibly located on the port side, not visible in the latest photographs. The photographs also suggest new under-wing pylons. These appear to be strengthened for a variety of possible uses, ranging from larger drop tanks to ASMs.
The engine is likely to be either a redesigned WS-10A (B) or possibly the WS-15, a new generation engine currently in advanced development. This would not only have higher thrust than the AL-31s, but also feature TVCs, giving the J-10Bs vaunted agility an even greater boost. The actual engine on the aircraft presently on the released pictures, is the AL-31.
Like the J-10S, a J-10BS is also eventually likely. This would be an advanced trainer with the 360 degree view similar to the J-10S. EW/Wild Weasel variants could also eventually be possible. Grande Strategy
The airplanes in the Russian inventory are:
-
SU-27 a fourth generation fighter
-
SU33, and SU35 derivatives of the 4th generation SU-27s
The Pakistanis should be tight lipped about the new Chinese fighter and whether Pakistan is going to acquire any. The Chinese in a sweet deal of $2.5 Billion with the Russians purchased the right to produce the SK-27. The J-11 is a “third generation” aircraft. The Chinese call it 3rd generation even though it is a 4th generation program per western standards
Now, the efforts in China and Pakistan are underway to move to the air-forces to the latest planes like SU-27K which is now called SU-33.
What about the SU-35? The original Su-35 was a derivative of the Su-27 and essentially a ground-based variant of the Su-33. While the official Russian Air Force designation for the aircraft remained the Su-27M, Sukhoi rechristened the model as the Su-35 in the hopes of attracting foreign customers. The Brazilians wanted to produce it but in the end opted for the Mirage IIIs.
The Brazilian decision appeared to have ended the Su-35 program once and for all since Sukhoi had little success finding other customers. Hopes were briefly revived in May 2006 when Venezuela announced interest in the Su-35, but the nation instead chose a variant of the Su-30. The move is largely politically-motivated given recent tensions between Venezuela and the United States over America’s ban on providing support for the Venezuelan F-16 fleet. the Su-35 was revived at least in name in 2007 when Sukhoi announced the aircraft had entered production for the Russian Air Force. This incarnation is also a derivative of the Su-27
A derivative of the Su-27 ‘Flanker’, the Su-37 is a super-maneuverable thrust vectoring fighter. Designed from an Su-35 prototype, the Su-37 test aircraft (designated T10M-11) made its maiden flight in April 1996 from the Zhukovsky flight testing center near Moscow. The Su-37 is first Russian aircraft to feature thrust vectoring control comparable to the F-22 Raptor. (www.globalaircraft.org/planes/su-37_flanker.pl)
Here is a F-16 side by side with the SU-37.
MOSCOW, February 21 (RIA Novosti) – China has built a domestic copy of the famed Su-27 Flanker fighter and may compete with Russia on third-party markets if it sets up the full-scale production of the plane, a Russian daily said on Thursday.
China has acquired 76 Su-27SK fighters from Russia since 1992, and bought a license for production of another 200 planes in 1995, in a deal worth $2.5 billion.
“Since 1996, the domestic version of the Su-27 aircraft, dubbed J-11, has been produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) with the use of Russian components,” the Vedomosti newspaper said.
The licensed production of the Su-27 has given China its most capable fighter aircraft while also providing a vehicle for its industry to gain knowledge of third-generation fighter manufacturing, Vedomosti said.
About 95 aircraft had been produced in China by 2003. However, the 1995 agreement did not include the transfer of avionics and AL-31F turbofan engine technology, and the Chinese manufacturers had to rely on the Russian supply of these systems.
In 2004, China requested that Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer stop deliveries of the assembly kits, stating that the basic variant of the Su-27SK/J-11 fighter could no longer satisfy Chinese Air Force requirements.
But the Russian sources insist that China’s decision was prompted by an increased share of domestic components in the assembly of the licensed aircraft and breakthroughs in engine manufacturing technology.
“The breakthrough in engine manufacturing technology allowed China to increase its share of domestically developed components and technologies from 70-75% to over 90%,” the newspaper cited an official from the Russian state-controlled arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, as saying.
In 2006, China revealed first official details about the domestically developed WS-10A Tai Hang turbofan engine, similar to the Russian AL-31F engine in both technology and performance.
China announced that the engine had been successfully tested on a modified Su-27K fighter, but Russian experts believe it is not reliable enough to start the full-scale production of the aircraft.
Rosoboron export and Chinese officials refused to comment on the latest developments in the situation regarding the licensed production of Su-27s in China.
Meanwhile, Konstantin Makiyenko from the Russian Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, believes that if China manages to launch a full-scale production of the indigenous copy of the Su-27, it would easily push Russia from third-party markets, and it would be difficult to prove a violation of the license agreement.
Su-27 Flanker and its variant, Su-30 Flanker C, constitute the bulk of Russia’s arms exports. Last year, Sukhoi exported 50 of these aircraft, accounting for 50% of Rosoboron export’s export revenues, Vedomosti said.
The newspaper also noted that China had a long history of copying Russian aircraft. Chinese J-6 and J-7 fighters were modeled after MiG-19 Farmer and MiG-21 Fishbed, H-6 bomber – after Tu-16 Badger, and Y-5, Y-7 and Y-8 transport planes – after An-2 Colt, An-24 Coke and An-12 Cub, respectively. RIA Novosti
Chinese technology exports to Pakistan: JF-17 Thunder, J-10s, J-11s. This alliance has propelled the aircraft manufacturing of China to new levels and given the Pakistanis access to Chinese acumen which it did not have before. JF-17 Thunders
Beyond the JF-17 Thunders. The J-10s etc
Pakistan’s 250 JF-17s, 50 F-16: Indias panicky “concern”.
There are some new developments on the JF-17 Thunder development and the latest news about the increases cooperation between the Pakistanis and the Chinese. We reported the WS-13 development in the February of 2008. Now Grande Strategy is also discussing the same issue. However Grande Strategy does not mention the latest development on this matter. Pakistan has also working with European and American engine manufacturers to develop the local Pakistani version of the WS-13. Additionally though Grande Strategy does mention some of the newer Avionics, it does not mention the latest on the Beyond Visual Range (BVR). Great strides have been made by the Chinese in improving BVR in the J-10s and the J-11s. Obviously this technology does flow down to the JF-17 Thunders. Pakistan has also worked with the Turks and the Europeans in enhancing the BVR capability.
What’s Cooking in Chengdu
There are indications that Chengdu is becoming a major cooperation hub for Pakistan and China. Hints are flying that more is brewing at Chengdu than the FC-1 and the J-10 sourced from the ever reliable pshamim of pakdef. Apparently a consulate and a halal restaurant is opening up to accommodate the soft side of all these project ventures. Personally I would like to see a single engined stealth fighter come out of Chengdu, as much as the reports are that its going to be a twin engined plane. Whatever is cooking in Chengdu, its likely to be halal for the PAF.
Future Modernization Roadmap
I think the future modernization of the JF-17 in PAF service will be along two more blocks – first 50, next 100 and final 100. It may be that the first 50 will be modernized after the last block.
The first 50 will include Chinese avionics and weapons, RD-93 engines and at best a foreign IR missile. The second block is likely to incorporate the WS-13 engine, Western radar and missiles and various augmenting sensors. These may include the Selex Vixen radar and the MBDA Meteor or perhaps the AMRAAM. The reason for this is that the SD-10 is untested, and AESA radar development is still not mature in China. Further, the SD-10 is a bit heavier than its Western counterparts and is less suited for the light fighter class than say, the Mica or the AMRAAM would be. AMRAAM of course would be ideal given that there would be commonality with the F-16s. Even if an AESA is not bought for the second batch, a western radar that allows the integration of the AMRAAM, even if it is not necessarily more advanced than the KLJ-7 would definitely be welcome. A HMD/S such as the Guardian or the Cobra with a HOBS missile would also be something the PAF is likely to be looking at. Some minor stealth features may also be incorporated in the second block.
The third block would possibly incorporate a Chinese AESA and perhaps a Chinese ramjet BVR missile (given that the speculated Meteor buy does not go through).
It is also likely to be more stealthier than any previous blocks. I would personally like to see provision for two BVRs to be kept semi-recessed, centerline and one behind the other, while the IR missiles stay on the wing tip. This could be a good trade-off between stealth and performance on a limited airframe.
A few readily available upgrades can also be borrowed from the J-11 program, including the new 3D holographic wide angel HUD and the optical missile approach-warning receiver. These should go into the JF-17s from the very first block.
RD-93 / WS-13
One of the bigger issues with the RD-93 is its inability to be completely smoke free. While it has been significantly decreased, some smokiness still remains. No such problem is likely to exist with the WS-13. Reliability and MTBF as well as better fuel efficiency are key elements where the WS-13 also likely trumps the RD-93.
What is however truly impressive about the RD-93 and even considering all its misgivings, is the acceleration and quick response it can achieve. The engines’ response is virtually instantaneous. Whether the WS-13 can match this would be interesting to note, although perhaps not as relevant or important. Below are the available specifications of the WS-13 and the RD-93.
Other Features of Note
Single crystal turbine blade technology
8 axial pressure compressor
We have already discussed the RD-93 vs WS-13 issue. We do take strong umbrage at Grade Strategy for referring to the JF-17 Thunder as FC-1. The JF-17 Thunder is not the FC-1.
Multi-role combat version of the Su-27, developed from the Su-35. The Su-37 uses full digital FBW controls in combination with two- dimensional thrust vectoring nozzles. Like the Su-35, it has canards. The Su-37 is not yet in production.
Type: Su-37
Function: fighter
Year: 1996
Crew: 1
Engines: 2 * 137kN Saturn AL-37FU
Wing Span: 14.70 m
Length: 22.10 m
Height: 6.32 m
Wing Area:
Empty Weight: 18500 kg
Max.Weight: 34000 kg
Speed: 2400 km/h
Ceiling: 17800 m
Range:
Armament: 1*g30mm 8000 kg
Pakistan wants to replace the F-16s in 2020 with the F-35s
The Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) possesses some 1653 combat capable aircraft. ThePLA Navy has 290 of which some 30 per cent are current generation including 84 J-10, 116 J-11(Su-27), 97 Su-30MKK, 156 JH/FB-7, 516 J-8, and 540 J-7. Since its unveiling in 2003-04, the PLAAF has already inducted 84 J-10 fighters of the roughly F-16 class.China has the capacity build 40 to 50 fighters per year, a capacity it is increasing exponentially.
China has built the first ever Airbus outside Europe and rolled out a Cessna-162 basic trainer the first of some 1500 of these aircraft. According to Aviation Week & Space Technology (AWST) Annual Review Resource Book 2009, ‘Aircraft Forecasting’ Report, China would rank among the major producers of modern fighters in the current decade with the capacity to produce 45 to 48 fighters of the J-10 and J-11 class. This means that the PLAAF would field some 1500 to 2000 modern fighters by 2020
India’s budget– fit for a superpower 
Murder of 10 million Indian girl babies: Before & right after birth. Why is the media silent?
India Balkanizing? Naxalite insurrection widening cracks in deep cavaties 
The 2nd world revolution (after Buddhism) from Nepal: Another threat to India 
Red Nepal: Clear and present danger to India
Noticias de Rupia | Nouvelles de Roupie | Rupiennachrichten | ??????? ????? | ???? | Roepienieuws | Rupi Nyheter | ??????? | Notizie di Rupia | PAKISTAN LEDGER | ???????? ????? | Moin Ansari | ???? ??????? | 
Defensebriefs
Intellibriefs
Translate to: 
India a Failed state? 
The Singh Doctrine for Akhand Bharat Fails 
India’s Security nightmares: Naxalites, Mioram, Tamilland, Khalistan, 7 sisters of Northeast, 450 million Untouchable Dalits, Kashmiris, 150 million Muslims Women harassed in “Incredible India”: Female genocide-Persistent ogling, heckling by Indian men. GENDER MURDER:-10 million baby girls killed before & after birth: Female gender genocide is destroying male female ratio in India
Hunger in India worse than Bukino Faso. Bottom in Asia. Worst in South Asia 
How Buddhism was exterminated from South Asia? 600BC-400AD 
Replacing Hinduism in Buddhist lands: The Hindu extremists use the Safron Swastika flag instead of the tri-colored flag of India. (see Hindu unity dot org) 
Extremist Hindus show power using the Swastika in triple entendre–as an ancient Hindu symbol, reverence for Hitler & sign of Anti-Western Indian hatred. Many want to use the Swastika as the Indian flag.
Indian penury: The reality vs. Bollywood’s (Pornywood) marketing gloss 
How long to extripate penury from india? 300 years!
Khumb Mela: India’s 60 million filthy naked Hindu males India’s budget– fit for a superpower 
Indian Cracks visible: Naxalite insurgency exposes deep cavities in India India Balkanizing: Naxal insurgency widening cracks into deep abyss 
Murder of 10 million Indian girl babies: Before & right after birth. Why is the media silent? 
Sino-Indian feuds: Arunchal Pradesh is Chinese territory occupied by Delhi 
India Balkanizing? Naxalite insurrection widening cracks in deep cavities
The 2nd world revolution (after Buddhism) from Nepal: Another threat to India 
Red Nepal: Clear and present danger to India 
Why is Urine drinking popular in India? From Mohandas Gandhi to PM Desai to common man. 
India at bottom of world’s hungriest countries: Scores worse than Barkino Faso in the list of the hungriest nations on the planet 
Reality of Slumdog’s extreme poverty irks Indians living in Bollywood dreams 
Appendix A
J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison
The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day. TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.
While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.
Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines. The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles. BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.
The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.
The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.
Three Different J-10s?
The reported total estimated number of J-10s is 1,200. This figure is according to Russian sources from the Moscow Airshow and is also reported in the Department of Defense annual reports to the U.S. Congress on Chinese military modernization. Given these numbers would go to the various J-10 variants. This author’s view is that China has no limits set for the production of J-10s. They’ll take as many as Chengdu can produce. However, the real question is – which J-10?
Firstly, we have the First Generation J-10s with AL-31 engines. Chengdu was to follow these with a J-10A with WS-10A engines. This evolution has encountered obstacles related to reliability issues. The J-10B, represents a 4.5 generation plane but it remains to be seen what engine is used with this plane. Meanwhile, according to informed commentators, a J-10C with twin engines around the size of RD-33s and incorporating similar features to the J-10B has arrived. This is supposedly a direct competitor to the Eurofighter and has the same layout – twin engined canard delta with a single tail. The PLAAF will have to decide whether to go with the J-10B or the J-10C at some point. Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFFDP-2019.
A carrier based J-10 has also been reported but this is in direct competition with the J-13, a dedicated 4.5++ carrier fighter with a conventional layout similar to the F/A-18 Super Hornets. Lastly, we have a stealth 5th Generation evolution of the delta canard, but this has reportedly lost out to a conventional layout based on the F-22. Chengdu has reportedly not lost out completely but is taking part in the project jointly with Shenyang.
Chinese 5th Gen
<!–[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]–>
<!–[endif]–>
The 5th Generation Chinese stealth plane is what would eventually close down J-10 production. The XXJ or J-XX as it is often referred to, has been the subject of intense competition between China’s two premier fighter design institutions – CAC and SAC. While CAC’s 611 Institute lost the bid to SAC’s 601 Institute, both entities have begun joint development of the new fighter. How the rivalry plays out remains to be seen. It appears Chengdu has the upper hand as it is perceived to have been more successful. J-10 program director Liu Gaozhou recently stated that, ” we are researching and developing a fourth generation to meet the requirements of defending the motherland.” China’s fourth generation is of course, the 5th generation we refer to in the West.
The design is a conventional layout in direct similarity to the F-22. The J-XX will be powered by the WS-15, a new generation engine in development. Normal TO weight would roughly measure to 20 tons and thus be in the heavy fighter class.The J-XX would possibly be superior to all
Credits:
Forums: Pakdef, Keypublishing Forums, Defence.pk, Sino Defence Forums, China-Defense Forums
Special Credits:
Crobato
Deino
FaisalK Pakdef (Mark Sein)
Farooq
GAF
H Khan Pakdef
Huitong
Jawad
Murad (Muradk)
Munir
Pinko, CDF
Sabre (Pakdef)
vikasrehman
Zia ul haq
Fan videos:
Video 1
Video 2
Video 3
Pakistan’s “214 Subs” made in Karachi
5th Generation Su-35 spinoffs made in China as J-11s Pakistan rapidly moving beyond basic JF-17 Thunders. The J-10s J-11s and newer versions of JF-17
The Pakistani hawks in the sky: Y-89 AWACS
Nothing succeeds like success: Hataf, Ghauri, Babar, Abdali missiles
—————————————-
JF-17 Thunders: Designed, built and operationalized in a record time of 4 years. Custom built for Pakistani needs
Serial production of JF-17 Thunder expedited:30-50 per year to 100 per annum
Beyond the Pakistani made JF-17 Thunder Fighter Plane, Chinese made J-10s.PAF next acquisition the J-11s?
Pakistan defense based on missile nuclear deterrent Hataf, Shaheen Babar and Abdali
Hamza: Pakistan’s Augusta class Subs made in Karachi 
Pakistan’s 500 Al-Khalid tanks have been in production since 2001. Next generation tanks exported via IDEAS 
Pakistani made UAVs: Uqaab & Jasoos 
Russian 5th generation Su 35s spinoff of Su 27 Made in China as J-11
The Singh Doctrine for Akhand Bharat Fails Gandhi’s racism: Criticism of Mohandas Gandhi by his grandsons and other Indians 
Why is Urine drinking popular in India? From Mohandas Gandhi to PM Desai to common man.
How Buddhism was exterminated from South Asia? 600BC-400AD Reviving Hinduism in Buddhist lands: The Hindu extremists use the Safron Swastika flag instead of the tri-colored flag of India. (see Hindu unity dot org)
—————————————-
Indian penury: The reality vs. the Bollywood marketing gloss:
————————————— India as World Power 1 
Extremist Hindus show power using the Swastika in triple entendre–as an ancient Hindu symbol, reverence for Hitler & sign of Anti-Western Indian hatred
Superpower India Pt 2 Extremist Hindus revere Hitler and use the Swastika as the Indian flag
Tanks: Bharati Arjun vs. Pakistani Al Khalid
Why doesn’t Russia transfer plane technology to India?
China achieves techonological independence in arms production
Pakistan’s F-22 Frigates made in Karachi 
Chinese SAMs S-300s for Pakistan 
When with Iranian S-300s be operational? 
Why did Pakistan buy fewer F-16s?
3 New shipyards support Pakistani ship building & Frigates
?
Related articles
- Sale at Dubai Air Show: 3 JF-17 Thunders for a price of a F-16 (rupeenews.com)
- ..of JF-17s, FC-20s and J-11s (rupeenews.com)
- Threats to Pakistan: Mountbatten to Obama (rupeenews.com)
- Changing Threat Perception: Revamping the Western border (rupeenews.com)
- The idea of becoming subservient to India is abhorrent and that of cooperation with India, with the object of promoting tension with China, equally repugnant.” Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (rupeenews.com)
- ‘You can shoot back’: Kayani wakes up to Right of Self Defense (rupeenews.com)
- The rage grows (rupeenews.com)
- 1971: Why the surrender? (rupeenews.com)
![Wall Street - Money Never Dies [Zardari Version]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5045452425_aa4d58c7a5_m.jpg){kind=small}
I LOVE PAKISTAN.ITS A GREAT COUNTRY EVEN IN THIS UNIVERSE.SWEET PAKISTAN
“The Nuclear bomb, the missiles and the tanks were all produced in record time, considering that Pakistan had only one dysfunctional Textile Mill, one dilapidated University, and one archaic Jute Mill in 1947. No other country has come so far in defense production in such a short period of time. ”
Yes, Pakistan has come far… But your statement that no country has come as far in such a short time is wrong.
Israel has gone much farther. In 1948 there were malaria infested swamps in the North and inhospitable deserts in the south, plus enemies on all sides. Today Israel is #1 in world for start-ups per capita (by far), has #1 number of scientists and engineers per capita, most museums, one of the highest rates of Internet use, free healthcare.
The cell phone was invented by engineers at Motorolla Israel, Windows NT developed in Israel, Drip Irrigation an Israeli invention, also Instant messaging, anti-virus, firewall concepts.
Furthermore, Israel has developed (since this is a military post):
THE LEGENDARY Uzi submachine gun
The Galil Assault Rifle
The Tavor
The Negev
The Galatz
The SR99
The Merkava Mark 1,2,3,4
The Magach
A myriad of missles including the legendary LAHAT
Nuclear Weapons (rumoured :-))
Several ultra long-range cruise missles (the Jericho 3 can hit much of Africa, Europe, Asia from Israel)
Planes:
The Kfir
The LAVI (which the Chinese used to create the J-10, if the USA had not blocked Israel from producing the LAVI it would have been years above anything else on the market, remember that the LAVI was scrapped many years before the Chinese turned it into the J10, think for a sec what that means in terms of how ‘before its time’ it was)
The Nesher
Israel also makes much of the avionics that are used in its airforce. The F16I (Sufa) is essentially an enhanced American body (conformal fuel tanks) and engine with Israeli computers + other avionics; F15I is similarly augmented
Defensive:
The Arrow & Arrow2 : best anti-ballistic missle in the world…
Israelis salvaged the (useless) Patriot system, rewriting much of the code that went into the Patriot 2 and 3 (Which now work, the first patriot used in the gulf war was useless against scuds)
Green Pine Radar System
Israel is one of the top arms exporter in the world.
Pretty good for a country of 4-6 million people, with 20-25% (about 1 million) Israel Arabs who have full voting, running for office, speech, religion, sexuality rights (the only Arabs in the middle East to have these rights)….
THIS ARTICLE WAS NOT A COMPARITIVE ANALYSIS WITH ISRAEL.
Most of the worlds technology emanates from the USA and from Russia.
The comparision was with India’s LCA–but your point of view is valid and respected.
Israel has come far. We agree. it ssuccess in agriculture, manufacturing and IT is to be admired and emulated. It was going to become the IT powerhouse of the world, but India destoryed its leadership and now China is fast becoming he IT hub of the world.
the Uzi was succesful but not as successful as the Klahnikov
But …Israel has come this far as a result of A Trillion Dollar in Aid to it most of it coverted to grants. See AIPAC written by two Israelis.
Kafir, Lavi were total failures–the most wasteful and unsuccessful projects perhaps in the history of mankind. That is why the IDF abandoned it
The Arrow is an abject fiasco unable to stop a singly Qassam rocket.
Most of Israel’s exports are a result of subcontractor status of US arms.
Please read Israeli Uri Avnery’s report on Israli Arabs. We admire Uri and work with Gush Shalom as well as Jewish Voice for peace.
Thank you for your feedback
500 jf-17? dude are you out of your mind…..
599 RD-93 engines already approved for sale
Israel has come far. We agree. it ssuccess in agriculture, manufacturing and IT is to be admired and emulated. It was going
to become the IT powerhouse of the world, but India destoryed its leadership and now China is fast becoming he IT hub of the
world.
————–
Not sure what you are talking about. Israel is an IT powerhouse because it is an innovator, it is renoknown for inventing and
improving on the existing – China and India are sources for cheap labour. Two very different realms I’m sure you would agree.
Maybe India and China will one day take the lead rather than being the low-cost ‘production shops’ they are today, but that’s
a long, long way away…
———–
the Uzi was succesful but not as successful as the Klahnikov
———–
The sky is blue. The Earth is round… And? Who said otherwise?!
————-
But …Israel has come this far as a result of A Trillion Dollar in Aid to it most of it coverted to grants. See AIPAC written
by two Israelis.
—————————-
If you were to do your homework you would have found out immediately that the vast majority of the few billion (WHAT
TRILLIONS?!?!?!) grant Israel gets from the USA every year MUST BE SPENT WITHIN THE USA!!! This money is not used for
domestic development but American purchases. BTW: This is one of the few weapons sales the USA makes that is actually EVER
PAID IN FULL! The vast majority of American Weapon sales become part of the buying nations deficit, an unpaid debt that
accumulates interest by the second, and is never ever repaid to the seller. America’s so-called grant is essentially an
infusion of funds BACK INTO ITS OWN ECONOMY!
————-
Kafir, Lavi were total failures–the most wasteful and unsuccessful projects perhaps in the history of mankind. That is why
the IDF abandoned it
The Arrow is an abject fiasco unable to stop a singly Qassam rocket.
—————————-
The other points you made are at least arguable, but this is just silly… I am astonished that a learn’d author on the
subject would make such statements.
The KFIR was not abandoned, it went into production and in service with airforces in nations other than Israel! The Kfir had
the bad fourtune of being introduced less than 1 year than the F15 was aquired by Israel. The Kfir was introduced in 75, the
legendary F15 was introduced in 1976. That is the reason it was not widely used by Israel, nothing less than the delivery of
the single greatest fighter jet of our century (the F15)! Still, in the short it was used a Kfir was used to bring down a
Russian Mig21.
The LAVI was considered way ahead of its time. Like the Canadian AVRO ARROW project, the program died because of reasons
other than businesss or technical related issues – namely: victims of the USA! Many still assert that the LAVI died because
the USA believed its developent would severly harm their military exports, a huge market. We know it was not a failure
because in its short time the program achieved many milestones, achievments later adopted in the F16 (helmet mounted huds and
others were standard in the LAVI before others had even began developing the tech)… We also know it was not a failure
because CHINA BOUGHT THE TECHNOLOGY FOR THE LAVI FROM ISRAEL!!! ONE OF THEIR RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IS LOOKING FOR MUCH LIKE THE
LAVI, it is generally accepted that the Israeli technology heavily augmented its quick development cycle.
The ARROW was NEVER MEANT TO SHOOT DOWN LOW-TECH, LOW-HEIGHT ROCKETS LIKE QASSAMS! It’s common knowledge that the Arrow is
the greatest theater protecting anti-ballastic missle defence program in the world today. It’s task, the task it was designed
to do and does better than any other system available today is the destruction of high flying, high-tech, super-destructive
missles, weapons like the SCUD-3, or the SHAHAB (or any of the other various North Korean Missles renamed to Iranian names).
There are other systems that are being developed for LOW-TECH, LOW-HEIGHT ROCKETS like QASSAM, Katyusha, and other threats like MORTARS. There are major types, the rocket type (using a rocket interceptor) and the laser type (uses laser to destroy threat). Both are in advanced phase of development but one of the problems is cost. If the enemy is producing missle for $100, and can fire many of them per day, how can a nation afford the $10,000 to $1,xxxxxxx…… per-interception price tag?
information on these techs, including videos of advanced stage tests are available all over the net
It is a pleasure to read many comments from our esteemed readers. Yours is one of them.
Thank you for your invaluable feedback. You make some valid points. The artilcle is in the process of being updated. your points will be included.
We agree that most of the US aid stays in the US–going out ot US consultant. However a lot of it becomes grants. The books on AIPAC by Grant F. Smith, John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, James Petras, Paul Findley, Grant, F. Smith
have varying numbers of the US aid to Israel. The real numbers of aid and grants in real Dollars is more than a Trillion. Most of the authros are Israel, except for Paul Findley who some may consider a bit ciritical of Israel.
I agree with “low cost” issues but smart technologies can and should overcome the low labor issues. The main question to be asked is that Isreal should have and could have used the same labor pools that Microsoft has used in India, and China. Israel if she had taken advantage of the low cost of labor in the Arab world, she would have had been able to resolve many (though not all) of the political problems that she is facing.
India and China export more than $50 Billion in software exports. Israel, despite its early headstart in information technology and in spite of it unlimited access to US valuts of information lost the early lead and now is a “also ran”.
According to Jane’s report “China has reached “technological independence”. In the 80s and 90s, many analysts were under the assumption that Israel too had reached “technological independence”– in many ways he has achieved that.
However today the colossal failures like the Lavi and the Arrow casts doubt on this. I agree that the Chinese are using some of the Lavi technology to build their FC-1, J-100 and J-11 to propel themselves out of the Russian orbit on aircraft manufacturing.
The Uzi is a great gun. However the Klashnikov is more successful becuase of various factors. Low maintenance is among it main competitive advantage.
In the aftermath or the failure of the patriots, perhaps the Israeli politicians over sold the Arrow as a magic wand to solve all of Israel’s problems.
You are right the cost-benefit ratio on the Qassam is hard to justify.
Once again, we thank you for your comments. The next version of the article will be imporved based on your feedback and comments.
Best Regards,
Finally we have arrived at aviation scene. This is no mean acheivement. At the time of partitioning, we had nothing, India had Hindustan Aircraft Company, at Agra. They are still there, trying to develop their LCA,
without any success.
We masha Allah have come a long way, we must not let our relations with China to degrade, as our enemies are palnning. We must further strengthen these relations, and develop our next genrations of
fighter aircrafts by joint efforts.
Pakistan a mirracle of God.Amazing country with amazing people.Poor,uneducated,unemployed yet so rich so educated so busy to explore new dimensions.Pak[istani]ipower all the way.
http://rupeenews.com/2008/09/11/more-than-75-indians-live-below-poverty-line/
Your sarcasm is not lost to the dichotomy of the country–very similar to other places…where a country can turn the ignition swotch on Russian rockets but cannot feed its poor, and hungry and murders 10 millon baby girls every year (http://rupeenews.com/2008/04/15/indian-girl-infanticide-female-foeticide-1-million-girls-killed-before-or-after-birth-per-year/) and incarcerates 50 million “white widows”
http://rupeenews.com/2008/10/21/india-score-worse-than-barkino-faso-on-hunger-index-edges-out-haiti-worst-in-south-asia/
India score worse than Barkino Faso on Hunger Index: Edges out Haiti–worst in South Asia
Behold the world power
http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/24/india-as-a-world-power-part-1/
The claims of Pakistan’s rapid progress are rather exaggerated and the comparison with Japan is hilarious. The Japanese did not produce their weapons in 1940 but had been developing them over the years. Even as early as 1905 the Japanese navy possessed modern warships and they defeated Russia in the war over Port Arthur.
As such Pakistan army’s performance was a fighting force has been disappointing to say the least.
Aamir bhai,
Pakistan army’s performance was a fighting force has been disappointing to say the least.
I dont think so. It has conquered the people of Pakistan thrice. Plus beaten Kalat in 1950s, Bengalis in 1970, Baluchistan in 1970s, Sindh in 1980s, Karachi in 1990s and Okara in 2000. Lately it has won handsomely in Lal Masjid and is all set to win in Waziristan, Bajaur and Swat as well.
Dev Kant
Mr. Dev Kant ,
All , I would like to say that Pakistan has real muscle , We are not willing to discuss on that platform ,
Let the time come , you would come to know near future , As
far as it concern about Indian Arm forces capabilty , We all know as u know about your Arjun Project , LCA Project , Missile and your Nuke TECH . Its not hidden from any one , when you know that world is a globle village . We are well sufficient in our tech and as far as it concern your TECH . Every body know’s what you have, instead of that to live in the fools paradise try to be realistic . As far as it concerns about the previous wars . Every body know’s what you people have gained. To spilt Pakistan into two parts , its not your acheivements , its the bigenning of India disaster and one day you will also admit that wait for 2 more years. The result be their , as you know who ever dig for others one days they fall in their own trap .
Syed Khurram Hussain
well pakistan army’s performance have always been impressive if u try to think rationally. both the armies IA and PA have got different definations for victory. PA acts on the principles of defence whereas IA on the principles of offence. pakistan can not go offensive against india, which is 3.65 times bigger than pakistan.
-in 1948 pakistan took 1/3 of kashmir using stones and few guns which we got in charity (how can i forget our pathans who were the main fighting force)
-in 1965 pakistan airforce ruled the skies, navy destroyed an indian frigate as well. PA took some part of indian territory whereas IA took some of ours. under principles of defencive, PA fought really well.
-in 1971 india took advantage of civil war and geographical location of the then east pakistan whicih was surrounded by india from all sides. also our own country men were fighting against us. the only way of supplyin weapons to soldiers in east pakistan was to go back to china first and then to east pakistan which was almost impossible. we only had one squadron in east pakistan which fought 14 of indian squadron and still they could not down our fighter jets untill they thought of bombing our airfields after which refuelin was impossible. western pakistan was not hurt.
-kargil conflict was not a full war. only few of the army men were sent to back the jehadis with the artillery. airforce was never called in but despite that we managed to down two indian migs. later when nawaz sharif came to know about the conflict, supplies were stopped and the fighters up there had to eat grass to kill their hunger, forget about the ammunition (i met a soldier who was fighting in the conflict. he told me this)
therefore war bw india and pakistan can always end in a win win situation for both the armies (if u keep their doctrines before analysin)
rupeenews is sick, check carefully all contents keep contradicting, by the way if you paki’s are soo smart at copying everything why pak & china cannot explore the moon ?
This site is really full of malicious and oe sided false propagada…
Fact is pakistan and its leaders have ever digested the fact ad are still ruiing about Juagarh, Hyderabad?
Tejas (LCA) programme reached a major milestone when the prototype vehicle PV-3 landed at Leh on December 13 this year at 1326 hours,” Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) officials said here on Tuesday.
The event is seen as significant on many counts as Leh airfield is situated at an altitude of 10,600 feet and is one of the highest airfields in the world with a temperature variation ranging from plus 5 degrees Celsius to minus 20 degrees Celsius. The objective of the current phase of flight trials at Leh was to expose the on-board systems to the extreme low temperatures while making an assessment of the aircraft performance in the rarefied atmospheric conditions, DRDO officials said.
Two Tejas prototypes PV-3 and LSP-2 were involved in this important environmental test. The LSP-2 prototype powered by the latest IN20 engine with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) is in the Standard of Preparation (SOP) that would be cleared for induction into the IAF service soon
Edtior’s Note: Any further violation of code of conduct will not be tolerated and you will be banned.
Thank you for your feedback. It is great to know that India is banking on geography and mountainous terrain to simulate altitude to test planes. Most of the other Air Forces of the world bank on flying the plane to the designated altitude. That is called a flight test.
Perhaps the instrumentation can be mounted on a 747 for proper flight testing, berceuse obviously the plane cannot perform its primary function–flight.
The Tejas is being tested for the past 15 years. This is the longest “testing” of any plane in the history of aviation. Hopefully this grand milestone of the PROTOTYPE will help HAL and others to make a plane that flies.
There there is also the matter of the Tejas engine. It has none!
India is in the process of procuring engines from GE to fly the plane. If and when that happens the Tejas may fly on its own and then be classified as a plane!
In a one word summary the Tejas is a colossal failure and no amount of lipsitck on a pig wil lbe able to make this fiasco pretty.
is a war really won by armaments?
germany during world war 2 actually had a better trained force and better armaments than the allies. but they lost because eventually they did not have the sufficient industrial production capability to match their war effort against the allies. when the allies invaded germany they found so many fighter planes grounded mainly due to lack of spare parts, without rockets, without gasoline etc. so it doesn’t really matter what weapons you have or how trained you are – if you fight against an enemy who is superior to you in industrialization and production capabilities – especially in terms of size. so in a war how can pakistan ever match india over a period of time? this is not the age when a few hundred barbarians on horses can overrun a civilization.
On the one hand you talk about universities. On the other you discuss arms.
Pakistan has missiles and nuclear weapons to keep the “barbarians at bay”. Bharat has a history of taking over states, Kashmir (with a fake article of accession), Hyderabad (police action), Sikkim (purchasing tirbals), 560 states (declaring them as enemy states and taking them over). It attempted to destabilize Sri Lanka by creating and arming the LTTE. It tried to tkae over Bangladesh with a “treaty of friendship” which got dumped on August 14th 1975.
Nuclear arms will keep Bharatis at bay.!
and advice chinees to not buy israeli and russian weapones
there is no doubt that paf is one of the best air force in the world as it is proved in the wars of 1965, 1971, during the soviat union aggression and in kargil war.
iaf crash ratio is highest in the world. it is because of worst technology as many times it is reported in the indian newspapers. and lack of ability to handle the large airforce. iaf also concentrate on quantity but paf concentrate on quality
DIL DIL PAKISTAN JAN JAAN PAKISTAN
PAKISTAN EK JANOOON
ALWAYS LOVE PAKISTAN
Never seen so much garbage in print. What is the purpose, what is being proven? Glorifying armaments and war, does not advance one iota of goodwill among nations. The best Pakistanis can do is to make peace with India, and talk through the differences. Save the expense of arms and build up infrastructure, and uplift the standard of the masses. Pakistan is in a mess, and disliked world wide. Islam is pilloried as a religion in every continent. Pakistan has to do some urgent repair work to save itself.
Pakistan has been acclaimed in the London conference as the gatekeeper for Kabul and Bharat has been excluded.
Bharatis are hated in Australia, Bangaldesh, Nepal, China, Bhutan, Lanka, Maldives and in Pakistan.
Pakistan is loved even in Bangaldesh–cherished in China, supported by the US (recently tripled aid), and the EU.
Bharat is spending $10 billion on buying planes. Pakistan makes them. Why is this article so offensive to you. It rattles your Indian cage?
Islam is the fastest growing religion in Bharat, USA, Europe and the world. Four fifts of the converts are women. In the past several cunturies Islam has had astrnomical growth vs. other faiths.
Marjorie,
You are a ONE dick head bent on arrogant filled head. Wake up to real world !
This opium addict has forgotton that AQ Khan stole nuclear tech and cashed in on it by purveying to like minded terror nations with the consent of successive pak governments and the security establishements including the ISI. The pay back AQ cannot come out of his house and no delivery of medicines and water. So stop crowing about pak achievements, which is zero.
As for the spectacular avionics progress, how much of that is copy from Chinese, Irianian and North Korean hardware?
There is no addiction there. Temple indoctrinaiton will not allow you see ANYTHING positive in Pakistan–that’s just the way it is. the mentality that is unable to grasp the reality of Pakistan also fails to see anything positive about it. This is a pathalogical disease.
We simply report the facts. If you do not have the capcity to read stories from Bharati media sources, then you can live in your cacoon thinking that everything is hunky dorey!
Inability to face facts is sure sign of sanility–you can join the flat earth society–we are sure you will find many proponents of it
No one has the god given right to monopolize defensive weapons, technogly or anything else. Pakistan has proudly built nuclear weapons, and co-designed planes–what Bharat has been UNABLE TO DO, even after wasting $10 billion. Israel to had to abandon its Lavi fighter aircraft even though it has all the help it needed from the USA. Brazil was unable to create a plane from scratch.
Pakistan with access to western technology and planes (which China does not have) worked together and produced a plane which fits Paksitani needs, in terms of combat capability, reach, weight, and arms.
As far as the Chinese avionics–Pakistan is not using the Chinese avaionics. Pakistan is using the latest–see details in the specs. Beyond Visual Range is one capability that was developed by Pakistani engineers in conjunction with the Italians and the French. The BVR for the JF-17 Thunder, and the FC-20 is owned by Paksitan. Pakistan i BVR is to used on the 5th gen stealth Chinese plane (F-14)–which the Chinese call 4th generation. BVR is something that the forgot to specify on most of their planes–oops!
The LCA has been in the deisgn phase for 20 years and even today no one knows which GE engine it is going to use. The locally made kevari engine has been scrapped. The engine chosen doesn’t fit the frame which is now obsolete (20 years old).
If you have any knowledge about the failure of the Bharati missiles, you would not say what you did. The Agni, Nag etc are all totla and absolute failures per the DRDo and the recent audit by the Indian government. The entire missle program has been scrapped and now Bharat is only purchasing planes and missles. Even the Israeli missile has been a total fiasco…all reported from Bharati sources on this site.
All sources for the stories are from Bharat and Bharati officials.
http://rupeenews.com/moins-articles/india-military-page/
All sources for the stories are from Bharat and Bharati media.
Where did you get the news about the condition of AQ Khan. The same sources that tried to stop him from producing the nuclear bomb and the missiles. Aren’t these the same sources that were supposed to find WMDs in Iraq, and Baghdad woud be cake walk–and Afghanistan has been ocnquered!
On the similar topic, may we ask the nationality of Herr Von Braun. If one has the intelligence or the opportunity to visit the Smithsonian in Washington DC, one would see German rockets painted the red white and blue for American and Red for Russia. Wasn’t the entier Apollo program based on German technolgy and dind’t the USSR and the USA “kidnap” the scientists for their technical knowhow. Of course Von Braun lived in a gilded cage in Hunstville Alabama, where the space museam shows all the artifacts brought in from Nazi Germany.
Mr. Kalaam–the “non-scientists” (per DRDO chiefs) stole secrets of the NASA’s Scout program. This is ocmon knowledge.
http://rupeenews.com/2009/01/24/how-abdul-kalam-stole-us-secrets-for-delhis-rockets/
Of course Paksitan’s Nuclear program was clandestine–just like Israels and Bharats. Nothing wrong with that. It was a time when Pakistan was under sanctions. Islamabad had to defend itself against the belligernet enemy that threaten war on fake evidence and false flags. Pakistan has had nuclear weapons for more than a decade, and has threatened no one.
Everything that Bhrat produces is Russian based–taken out of kits and assembled–in the case of Migs 21s, not to nicely assembled.
Your blog is useless, you cannot accept facts, it only glorifies a disintergrating Pakistan. It contains nothing but falsehoods, and puffery. Pakistan exists for the promotion of jihad and terrorism around the world. Pakis have been taking the US for a ride for three decades. All that money US has poured in and why is the country still poverty stricken?…..where is the money gone, who has stolen it? Why don’t you ask some of your boasting and terror promoting contributors to write about this big rort? What has Pakistan achieved in 62 years? What has the country to show for its existence? What progress has it made, let alone crowing about advances in arms technology copied from popular magazines and passing them on as paki inventions. Publish this and be damned.
Perhaps you can use your real name to get some credability. If you had read the article you would have not asked all the questions–all those have been answered in the publication. Pakistan has achieved the liberation of 170 million Muslims from Brahman tyranny
170 million escaping tyranny? What tyranny? Go back into history, where do you think your ancestors came from? There was no Moses to guide you to safe haven. Your ancestors were Hindus and you lot still worship Shiva lingam in Mecca and pay homage to OM, though you will not admit it.. After the conversion in the subcontinent your ancestors unleashed a reign of terror, destroying culture, works of art, temples and idols of great antiquity and value. Remember the Bamyian Buddas?, don’t tell me that pakis were not complicit in its destruction. That is your history and you better believe it. Yes I have not forgotten BJP’s Barbri Masjid episode.
Your founder the late Mr. M A Jinnah tried to find an honourable way out, but look at the sorry mess you are in after 62 years. Sunni against Shia, Ahmadiayas (do even count anymore) blowing up Masjids (on Fridays ) and schools willy nilly. And an open season on all non-muslims. And what about the Kashmir Pandits? Where do they fit in this mayhem? Is this what Jinnah fought for? Where is the land of the pure
mpillar@yahoo.co.nz.
If you used your real name you would have some credibility. Hiding behind a pseudonym leaves you without any respect on this site.
Ohm has Arabic origins. It come from “aman” which means peace. Muslims do not worship any shiva or or any lingum. Muslims use lingim but thats it.
Bharat is exploding like Yugoslavia and imploding like the USSR. More than 50 states don’t want anything to do with Delhi and want to go their own way in varying desgees of seccession. Where is Bharat? Not in Kashmir, not in Assam, and not in Maharashtara. It si not present in more than 200 districts controlled by the Maoist Naxals who own 40% of the territory of Bharat.
On every index of human venture Pakistan either is better or slighty les than Bharat–this is some achaivement considering that most of Paksitan is 1947 was tribal and the backwater of South Asia. Lieteracy was less than 16% and is not 60%-80%. There was only one dilapidated textile mill and one non-working jute factory. The one University did not function. Today Pakisan has 150 universities, is a nuclear and missile power and competes with the best in plane manufacturing and tank exports.
Quaie e Azam did a great service to the Muslims of South Asia.
Kashmir pundits fit into the same picture as the 300,000 Gujarati Muslims who are not allowed to return home to Gujarat.
The land of the pure competes with Delhi in everything–which cannot cross the border. Never again.
Your info only comes from reading jihad papers and literature. You have no knowledge of the outside world, or how the outside world perceives Pakistan and its people. Nearly every government worth its salt has a special section dealing with terror emanating from the land of the pure. Suggest move off from your myopic views. Pakistan rating is zilch but for the US benefactor, you would be eating grass if you can find any. On one hand you take US money, and show discourtesy by whipping up anti-US sentiment and undercutting its policy. That is the story of Pakistan in a nutshell. All these achievements are just baloney. For outsiders looking inside pakiland, cannot even make out who is who in the zoo.
Oh! Really Just ask any Australian what they think of India–or ask any Chinese or any Nepali, Lankan or Pakistan. One will get the same answer–Take a shower!
Didn’t the Indian get thrown out of Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania a few decades ago. Why is it that all neighbors of Bharat hate Bharat?
Ill tell you a secret..we know the answer–it is because of people like YOU!
You live in New Zealand and call yourself Marjorie–that says it all. Afraid to use your real name–lest you get dported for being Indian
You contradicted yourself in the same comment. You say Pakistan is this that and the other. Then you say that the US helps Pakistan a lot. You forgot the other European, Muslim countries that support Pakistan. And don’t forget China.
Inability to read or comprehend the reality is what Bharat is all about–a lot of talk but no walk!
The story of Bharat is being written in Maharastra and Mumbai or is it Bombay?..and in Telangana, and the other 50 states that want nothing to do with Delhi. Also the history is being written in Assam, and a lot is being written the Kashmirs and the Maoists who control 40% of the landmass called Bharat.
Bharat is imploding like the USSR and exploding like Yugoslavia.
Your temple indoctrination forces you to reject all news except bad news about Pakistan. What a way to live. You need to get this psychological problem treated.
BTW: The sources are Times of India, Janes Defense Weekly, The Daily Dawn, and Defense Journal of China–hardly parochial newspapers.
Your English language skills need some improvement though!
You have not woken from your dream yet. When you do, Baluchistan and Sindh will have broken away, leaving only Punjab and the lawless area bordering Afghanistan as the remnants of Pakistani State, sitting on a pile of nukes. Who knows, some extremist might even set it off to relieve your misery. If you survive the terrorists, I shall be delighted to renew our acquaintance. In the meantime good luck, and please do not forget to look to the heavens for Allah’s blessings
Didn’t like the article. Did it show you a face of Pakistan that you did not accept. Why are you hiding behind a fake name? The Baloch and Sindhis will ratake what is theirs in Bharat. Don’t you worry!
According to the news article (from a Pakistani source) Pakistan cannot make JF-17 anymore because France will not give Pakistan any spare parts.
Also it proves JF-17 is not indigenous.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/12-france+says+arms+sale+to+pakistan+held+up–bi-05
Raj:–Its you again. Not sure why you have to use subterfuge and use false names–if you love Muslim names so much you should convert!
We believe that you are another victim of SELECTIVE READINGS. If you have read the article on which you are commenting on, you would have seen the plane is running and flying. These parts were for the next generation of planes. Those were French enhancements. Every time there are sanctions, Pakistan continues to develop indigenous resources.
Peace n blessing
Dear editor, I like the new J-10B fighter/bomber aircraft. It surely would increase the capability of PAF. As far as the Dogfight is concerned, i would still put my money on F-16, not for the fact that it is American, which alone is good for betting, lol, but it is tested and has proved itself as the best multi role fighter jet. so i have few questions
1) Does the PAF fly J-10A, which in the new PAF calender well seen?.
2) Will PAF acquire or has acquired the Technology for J10B, like the JF 17?.
3) Is there any chance that PAF might opt for J-11, which in my opinion not likely so?.
4) Is Pakistan Navy building a Carrier in 2015, i have seen it somewhere, but with no official confirmation?
I still Think F-16 is best cause it still has better looks,and i have always loved this handsome beast. I hope i love J10B soon with technology as well. Looking forward to your kind reply. Thank you
Muhammad
Pakistan has redesigned the the J10B as the FC-20 which is a vastly superior aircraft and will be making it in Pakistan. J-11s will be purchased soon.
The next gen of JF-17s are also on the anvil
Please provide ref. on carrier.
Mr Majorie.
Look friend there is no point in dragging each others legs like in the past. We Like the Indians and hope we get together as good neighbour and friends, nothing more than that. You Live there and we live here. But as Far as War btw you and us, i hope it does not come to that, You know why cause you guys are so scared of us that all that you can think about is Us. And if ever your nightmare came to reality; A war between India and Pakistan. There would be nothing left on your side. Why, cause we dnt give a damn whether we live or not, but you guys wont live at all. We promise you that. My ancestors Ruled your country for 1000 yr s, it would be nice to finish it instead of rulling it this time. Peace is the only answer for you, dream that and hope you know how much we Love you guys, dnt give us an excuse cause we as in ur books are mad men, so try not making us mad to the extent that you are carried away with it. And if you think we are bluffing, please try us, with whatever we have we will fight and make sure you and us never stand again, but i am sure it would be your nation that wont stand ever again.
. The only answer to your greatness is to respect your neighbours like every normal nation do. You have seen us as your enemies more than 60 yrs, please try to see it the other way around. peace my friend
Muhammad Ahad Khan Yousafzai
why Chinese not procuring Jf 17 hunter please through some light on it
Amar Bangla Bondho kamun Ache?
The India LCA and Tejas was started before the JF-17 Thunders. The Tejas and LCA have been in the design phase for thirty years. Pakistan designed and produced the JF-17 Thunders in four years. There is a squadron of JF-17 Thunder ready in Peshawar with 35-75 planes being produced in Kamra per year.
The JF-17 thunders were designed a decade ago by Pakistani and Chinese engineers. The Chinese have moved on with Pakistani help to the J-10B and the J-11s. They will keep improving the designs. The JF-17 Thunder was designed for specific Pakistani needs and is for all intent and purposes a Pakistani plane.
Already there are three versions of the planes, one with the original RD-93 engine, one with the WS-10/WS-13 engines, and the later ones with Pakistani X-10 engines and other avionics.
Concurrently work is being done on new designs of planes.
Pakistan is now designing the JF-18 and working beyond the J-10s (FC-20s). Per plan Pakistan will build 500 JF-17 Thunder planes of which about 250 will be for export.The JF-17 Thunders form the bedrock of the PAF which is free of sanctions. The indigenous capability helps Pakistan evolve into the next generation of aircraft.
Editors,
In several Rupee News articles it has been mentioned Paskistan is likely to procure the Chinese upgraded J-11′s. But is this not going against Pakistan’s goal of seeking only single engine planes?
Also, is there any more information available on the ‘Pakistani X-10′ engine? This is first I have heard of such a development. Quite interesting.
Finally, I believe you may have an error in yoru article:
“Pakistan will export the older versions of the plane to Khazikistan and other countries. Khazakistan will make it more difficult for Armenia to challenge it.”
Khazakistan? Did you mean Azerbaijan?
Keep up the good work!
Dear Editors,
“Pakistan will not go for the J-10C as the twin engines do not comply with their doctrine of single-engined fighters and with the AFFDP-2019.”
What is the reason for Pakistan not opting for Double Engine? Where as India has a major mix of Single and Double engine air crafts … Can anyone shed light on it?
Thanks and regards
Pakistan has chosen the J-10B and redesigned it as the FC-20. The FC-20 is dramatically different than the original J-10 and meets Pakistani requirements. T
he twin engines give more power, but restrict maneuverability. Pakistan will use missiles for distant targets not fighter planes. Pakistan needs jets to quickly respond to an air attack from Bharat.
The link that you supplied does not work. The statistics you provoided do not exist on the CIA page. You keep posting repeats of your flamebiats.
As the American saying goes..”put up or *** up”
right now your creadability is below zero in front of thousands of readers.