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| RUPEE NEWS | November 27th, 2008 | Moin Ansari | معین آنصآرّی | اخبار روپیہ | 
| NEW YORK | RUPEE NEWS | November 27th, 2007 | Moin Ansari| The Indus valley Civilization existed in what is today Pakistan. Pakistan is the natural inheritor of the Indus Valley Civilization, just like modern day China is the natural inheritor of the Chinese civilization (not called China then), and modern day Egypt in the natural inheritor of the Egyptian civilization (not called Egypt then). “Indus-valley-istan” existed 5000 years ago. Pakistan existed 5000 years ago, even though it was not called Pakistan. This is the geographic two nation theory.
Long before the Crescent and Star flew atop Islamabad, long before Mohammed Bin Qasim invaded Sind, and long before the Mughals spread prosperity in all the nooks and corners of the subcontinent, long before the Sikh dynasty briefly controlled Kashmir, and long before the Chundra Gupta Vikramadatya ruled India, the people of Punjab, Sindh, Sarhad, andKashmir were tied together as the people of Pakistan.
IVCexisted only in the Western part of the subcontinent, almost exclusively on the banks of the Indus (current day Pakistan). Therefore current day Pakistanis are inheritors of the IVC. There was a civilization in present day Pakistan. “India” did not exist 5000 years ago. The Sumerians called it Meluhha and Mekan. We don’t know what they called it. No one can be sure. “Pakistan” existed 5000 years ago in the IVC, even though the IVCprobably did not call it Pakistan.
One cannot accept the Lebanese, and the Syrian, and Cypriotic claim to the Egyptian civilization, and one cannot accept the Japanese claim to the original Chinese civilization. Similarly once cannot accept the “Delhi’s” claim to the IVC. The “Bharati” claim to the IVC is by association. The Egyptian claim to the “Egyptian” civilization is by geography.
There is a section of the Revanchist iBharati population that wants to describe the IVC as a Hindu civilization and then try to extend the boundaries of present day Bharat by claiming that the land from the Oxus to the mythical marker East of Bali called Raj Kilhani all belongs to Bharat. Of course a lot the revisionist history is “hocus pocus mambo jumbo” made inside temples.
The left-leaning Indian news magazine Frontline carried Farmer’s and Witzel’s article in a cover story titled “Horseplay in Harappa – In the ‘Piltdown Horse’ hoax, Hindutva propagandists make a little Sanskrit go a long way”. The article debunked sensational claims in 1999 that the Indus script had been “deciphered” by N S Rajaram and Natwar Jha.
The motive of this fraud was to prove that the Indus civilization was an early Hindu civilization. As proof, Rajaram and Jha produced an Indus Valley “horse” seal as evidence that the Indus people used horses, an animal commonly mentioned in the Vedas, the ancient Indian texts dating to the 2ndmillennium BC – over 2,000 years later than the earliest dated Indus Valley seals. But no images of horses were found in the Indus Valley excavations, until Rajaram and Jha produced their horse seal.
Farmer and Witzel proved that the horse seal was a fraudulent computerized distortion of a broken “unicorn bull” seal. The fake horse seal was derided as the “Piltdown Horse”, an imaginary creation to fill the gap between the Harappan and Vedic cultures, just as the famous “Piltdown Man” did in 1912. That year, skeletal remains of the “missing link” between ape and man were “discovered” in Piltdown, a village in England. They were later found to be fake. Indus Valley code is cracked – maybe By Raja
The beliefs of the IVC are totally irrelevant to the inheritors of the IVC. There is no conclusive proof of the beliefs of the IVC. Bainerjee andSir Edmund Hill, the two founding archeologists on the IVCclearly state in their writings, that the IVC people did not have any organized religion. No “Temples” have been discovered either in Moenjadaro or in Harappa or in Taxila. The ancient IVCculture, whether they worshipped anything or nothing is besides the point. The current day Egyptians are the inheritors of the ancient Egyptian civilization. The current day Egyptians are also Muslim. Are they going to be denied the right to claim the Egyptian civilization, just because they are Muslim? If one denies the Pakistanis the inheritance to the IVC, then you should go and challenge the Egyptians also. The ancient Egyptians ALSO participated in rituals that were Un-Islamic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krJ4J5RWPCE&NR=1
THE GEOGRAPHIC TWO NATION THEORY:
“Pakistan” existed 5000 years ago: What was it called 5000 years ago?
These maps clearly show the existance of Pakistan 5000 years ago as the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC).
The IVCtraded with areas contiguous to it and to places as far as Hawaii.
This map shows more than 570 states in the Subcontinent. At this particular stage of the British Raj over the hundreds of states, most of Pakistan is not part of the Raj.
These maps tell us about the Pakistan the people of the Subcontinent struggled for, and asked for. It shows the Muslim majority areas of the Subcontinent.
This is the Indus Valley Civilization (Pakistan) which we have right now. Compared to the map of the IVC 5000 years ago, it is very similar. The Indus Valley Civilization is a living and thriving civilization andit exists today as Pakistan, just like Pakistan existed as the IVC thousands of years ago.
The first Pakistani implements have been discovered in Soan River valley dating back 150,000 years. Mehergarh in Baluchistan is the oldest arable landdating back 7000 years ago. This frame by frame evolution of Pakistan begining 4000BC. From the Indus Valley the Pakistani civilization helped evolve the Gangetic civilizaiton in India which came hundreds of years later. During the British reign the Subcontinent was broken up into more than 570 states. When the British left the states on the Indus banded together to form Paksitan, and those on the Gangetic vally got together to from “Bharat” (official name in the constitution).
PAKISTAN AS INHERITOR OF THE IVC
Let us see what the encyclopedias says about the Indus Valley and Pakistan:
Present-day Pakistan shares the 5,000-year historyof the India-Pakistan Subntinent. At present day Harappa and Mohenjo Daro, the Indus Valley Civilization, with large cities and elaborateirrigation systems, flourished c. 4,000-2,500 BC. Beginning with the Persians in the 6th century BC, andcontinuing with Alexander the Great and with the Sassanians, successive nations to the west ruled or influenced Pakistan, eventually separating the area from the Indian cultural sphere.The World Almanac® and Book of Facts 1994
History. The area that is now Pakistan was the site of the INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION, the earliest known culture on the Indian subcontinent. Press. Copyright © 1991 by Columbia University Press.
Pakistan (pàk´î-stàn´, pä´kî-stän´) Abbr. Pak.
A country of southern Asia. Occupying landcrisscrossed by ancient invasion paths, Pakistan was the home of the prehistoric Indus Valley civilization, which flourished until overrun by Aryans c. 1500 B.C. After being conquered by numerous rulers and powers, it passed to the British as part of India andbecame a separate Moslem state in 1947. The country originally included what is now Bangladesh, which declared its independence in 1971. Islamabad is the capital and Karachi the largest city. Population, 83,782,000. – Pak´istan´i (-stàn´ê, -stä´nê) adjective & noun
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
Indus valley civilization, c.2500-c.1500 B.C., ancient civilization that flourished along the Indus R. in present-day Pakistan. Its chief cities were Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, where archaeologists have unearthed impressive public and private buildings that are evidence of a complex society based on a highly organized agriculture supplemented by active commerce. The arts flourished, and examples in copper, bronze, andpottery have been uncovered. Also found were examples of a pictograph script that long baffled archaeologists but was finally deciphered in 1969. The fate of the Indus valley civilization remains a mystery, but it is believed that it fell victim to invading Aryans.
The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia
An urban civilization with a so-far-undeciphered writing system stretched across the Indus Valley and along the Arabian Sea c3000-1500 BC. Major sites are Harappa and Mohenjo-Daroin Pakistan, well-planned geometric cities with underground sewers andvast granaries. The entire region (600,000 sq. mi.) may have been ruled as a single state. Bronze was used, and arts and crafts were highly developed. Religious life apparently took the form of fertility cults.
Indus civilization was probably in decline when it was destroyed by Aryan invaders from the northwest, speaking an Indo-European language from which all the languages of Pakistan, north India andBangladesh descend. Led by a warrior aristocracy whose legendary deeds are recorded in the Rig Veda, the Aryans spread east and south, bringing their pantheon of sky gods, elaborate priestly (Brahmin) ritual, andthe beginnings of the caste system; local customs and beliefs were assimilated by the conquerors.
The World Almanac® and Book of Facts 1994
Indus (în´des),chief river of Pakistan, c.1,900 mi (3,060 km) long, site of the prehistoric INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION. It rises in the TIBET region of China, flows west across Jammu andKASHMIR, India, then southwest through Pakistan, where it receives the “five waters” of the PUNJAB (the Chenab, Jhelum, Ravi, Beas, and Sutlej rivers), to an infertile clay delta on the Arabian Sea SE of Karachi. The unnavigable Indus is harnessed for irrigation and hydroelectricity by the Jinnah, Sukker, and Kotri dams. A treaty (1960) between India and Pakistan regulates withdrawals of water from the river and its tributaries.
The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia Anthropologists have observed that the present population of …Punjab is said to be ethnically the same as the population of Harappa and Rupar 4000 years ago. Linguistically the present day population of Gujrat and Punjab belongs to the Indo-Aryan language speaking group. The only inference that can be drawn from the anthropological and linguistic evidences adduced above is that the Harappan population in the Indus Valley and Gujrat in 2000 BC was composed of two or more groups, the more dominentamong them having very close ethnic affinities with the present day Indo-Aryan speaking population of India.
I call this the GEOGPRAHIC TWO NATION THEORY…and when I originally proposed it andposted it on the SCI it was met with a lot of hostility….Mr. Aitzaz Ahsan has now written a book on this subject Aitzaz Ahsan’s Indus run.
Some more water has gone down the Indus since Aitzaz Ahsan published his book. As the Indus does not flow – at least not so far – in the Washington area, it is only natural that the book which was placed in a bottle and consigned to the waters by the author somewhere near Wazirabadhas only found its way to these shores in the last few days.
The Indus reminds me of many good things. There used to be a watering hole at the hotel on The Mall in Lahore, which bears the name of the river, from whose cool recesses one summer afternoon, I had been summoned by the incomparable Prof G.M. Asar who by the time I arrived was in a most delightfully loquacious frame of mind, declaiming poetry in his rich and measured voice. His diction was so perfect that you could just learn English by listening to him, or Urdu for that matter.
But that is not the Indus Aitzaz Ahsan frequents – and who can blame him considering what has become of it. Or has written about. His book is about the river andthe region that now makes up Pakistan, what he calls the Gurdaspur-Kathiawar salient. His thesis, spun out over 350 pages, is simple but is it also true? One has to think because it is so perfectly formed, with no rough edges.
Truth, on the other hand, is often less meticulously packaged and is far more awkward to handle. Being the consummate lawyer the author is, the case is brilliantly argued.
Whether that makes him right as well is an open question. The basic idea of the book is that India and Indus have always been two distinct entities or regions in terms of civilisation and culture, their differences being “primordial and many”. Religion has not been the dividing line, only one of the factors. And since there was and is an Indus, there is also an “Indus person” who, poor creature, is the mess he is today because he has been “deprived of his heroes, nay, of himself and he has not gained much in the bargain.” So what is he then? The answer, if it please their lordships, is that “……he remains a family man, an enlightened non-fundamentalist Muslim, and a brave soldier (I knew there were khakis lurking somewhere in there)…. he is an ostentatious consumerist, a bad administrator and devoid of civic sense and responsibility.” That does it for me. Consumerist is best rendered by the national. Punjabi philosophy: Khao, piyo te jan banao. Or eat, drink and develop your biceps. Or one better:
Khao, piyo te paghrai na dyo. Eat, drink and don’t get caught.
The author tells us that apart from poets, mystics and warriors, it is the River Indus and its tributaries that have shaped the Indus person. Since no one is perfect, this being has developed certain defects, though none that cannot be cured. The book has been an attempt to highlight his strengths and develop his original potential. Once that happens, there is no reason why the Indus person and the India person cannot live in peace, amity and eternal goodwill. I will drink any amount of spiked Indus water to that.
The Indus person, Aitzaz Ahsan asserts, is a good soldier but a lousy administrator, an observation, let’s hope Mr Shahbaz Sharif remains unaware of, otherwise I can hear his
big bulldoze brigade beating bongo drums and moving towards Bank Square, Lahore, where the author keeps an office.
The Indus person, we are told, is a good soldier because he has “lived in the path of marauders who have come to burn his crops and villages.” Ahsan maintains that the “untiring Aryans”, the “savage Huns”, Alexander himself, the “unrelenting invaders” from Ghazni and Afghanistan, not to forget “the scourge of the earth” Taimuror the “ferocious” Nadir Shah, were given a tasteof their own medicine, or their own steel, by the Indus people. This is somewhat amazing because the received wisdom on the valour of this region, especially Punjab, is that in the event of an invasion, the inhabitants were lined up ten deep on their side waving garlands, pointing towards Delhi and shouting as they bowed from the waist: “Light of the Universe, Most Exalted Majesty, the good stuff lies in that direction.”
Aitzazalso comes up with the theory that the people of the Indus believe that it is righteousness and not technical superiority which wins battles. Interesting. Andwhere is righteousness to be found?
“Righteousness is with the faithful, even though they may lack discipline,
technology andscientifically more effective strategies” which is why despitea hundred years of the British, the Indus person “has not acquired a scientific attitude towards life.”
Does he have a role model? Yes. It is the “man on horseback, brandishing a sword and charging the enemy, single-handedly killing a hundred armed opponents.” Splendid, isn’t it! The mercenary and professional armies raised from this area by the British andthose before them, are a matter of pride for the author. “The Indus person, when drilled, trained and subjected to discipline, can make the best military officer anywhere in the world … He has learnt the advantage, in peace and war, of obedience to superior officers. These were the men that Indus produced to help Britain rule over a global empire.” Umph!!!
Rule Britannia, we are on your side.
But if the Indus men are such good soldiers, why are they such lousy administrators? Aitzaz Ahsan’sanswer: “Having been subjected to abject anarchy for centuries, the Indus person sees no need to abide by the rules himself.” Ha! but we had just been old that the Indus person is the best soldier in the world. How come he is such a disaster as an administrator? Or does the Indus person come in two varieties? The good soldier and the lousy administrator. Ahsan’s argument is that as long as the Indus person is in uniform, he is just fine, but once he is out of it, he instantly forgets what he has learnt. You only have to take one look at Gen Hamid Gul and Gen. Aslam Beg and exclaim that truer words were never spoken. Yes, that is also why soldiers have made such bad civilian administrators, adds the author. Andsince they are bad administrators, the “Indus elite” cannot abide by or have any respect for civic norms. One will need a cup of strong black coffee to digest this one.
Be that as it may, the fact is that it takes some doing to write a heavy book like The Indus Saga andthe making of Pakistan. Aitzaz is a man of many gifts. His retentive memory, for example, is so phenomenal that had Zulfikar Ali Bhutto known that it was better than his, he would have sent him, instead of Iftikhar Tari, to DalaiCamp. He can recite from Faiz, Faraz and Jalib for hours without faltering. Even Ms BenazirBhutto, who is quite without emotion in most matters, would sometimes not fail to be moved by Aitzaz Ahsan’s stirring recitation of verse she only half understood, being strictly “English medium” where it was perfectly in order to say. “Azan baj raha hai.”
Please also see:
There was no “partition”
http://moinansari.wordpress.com/for-britain-india-included-somalia-iraq-burma-etc/
Why we Created Pakistan?
http://moinansari.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/why-we-created-pakistan-the-pakistan-ideology/
Also see The Indus Valley Civilzationarticles on this site. By Ishtiaq Ahmed 2/2/2008
The official position on the origin of Pakistanis something like this: Muslims are expected to lead their lives in accordance withcomprehensive Islamic injunctions. For doing that, an Islamic polity is imperative. Hence Indian Muslims were boundto demanda separate state for themselves whenever an opportunity arose. The end of British colonialism provided such an opportunity and the Muslims whole-heartedlyresponded to the call for a separateMuslim stateon the Indian subcontinent. Some versions of such theorising locatethe origins of Pakistan in the arrival of the Arabs in the subcontinent in 711. Islam andHinduism, it is argued, represent two diametrically opposite worldviews. Therefore partition was inevitable.
Another set of theories can be called ‘cultural-geographical theories’. We are told that six thousandyears a distinct civilisation evolved around the Indus River andits various tributaries (roughly corresponding to the present territories of Pakistan) andremained separatefor most of those six thousand years from the one centred on the Indo-Gangetic plains of Northern India. The sharp contrast between them being that the Indus Valley Civilisation evolved a liberal and egalitarian ethos deriving from the influence of various unorthodox creeds and movements which during the Muslim period were blended into the mystical forms of Sufi Islam, while the rest of India was organized into an hierarchical andrigid social system which foundits ultimateperfection in the Hindu caste system. Hence, when the British withdrew from SouthAsia the Muslims of the Indus Valley Civilisation chose to separatefrom the rest of India. Such a theory it may be noted has no room for East Pakistanbeing part of Pakistan. (Editors note: ..but part of Bangistan as proposed by Chaudhry RehmatAli in his brochure “Now or Never”. There was Pakistan, Bangastina, Usmanistan and other Muslim areas in “Dinya”)
Another cluster of theories deriving from Marxism, look upon the movement for Pakistan as a democratic mass movement of the oppressed Muslim community against the dominant Hindu majority. Here, emphasis is given to the head start that Hindus and Sikhs enjoyed in taking to modern education in the schools established by the British. The Muslims lagged behind and consequently the non-Muslims captured the main sectors of the emerging capitalist economy. In particular the overwhelmingly Muslim agrarian classes including various categories of peasants were deeply indebted to the Hindu and Sikh money-lenders. An ideology of popular, egalitarian Islam attracted Muslims from all segments of society and therefore the establishment of Pakistan was the culmination of a protracted struggle to liberate Muslims from the yoke of Hindu-Sikh domination.
The most famous of these Marxist theories is the one put forth by the late Hamza Alavi. He asserted that the most ardent supporters of the idea of Pakistan were not the ulema but the Muslim salariat. The salariatcomprised the sizable body of modern-educated Muslims who perceived that the creation of Pakistanwould drastically improve their chances of finding employment withthe state than if they were not to remain a part of a united India dominated by the more economically andeducationally advanced Hindu majority. Thus, it is argued, Pakistan was not established out of confessional zeal but secular concerns of the salariat.
Alavi, however, never at any stage studied the actual dynamics of the Pakistan movement after the Lahore resolution of 1940. Therefore he was completely oblivious of the fact that the Muslim League made its breakthrough in the Punjab and NWFP only when it won over the Barelvi ulema and pirs. There is solid evidence to prove that Jinnah assured the ulemathat the Shariah will apply to Muslims in Pakistan.
Theories based on high politics deriving from the role of individuals in the making of history, identify the role of Mohamed Ali Jinnah as pivotal anddecisive to the creation of Pakistan. Without his towering leadership, it is asserted, the movement of Pakistan would not have succeeded. No only his lieutenants andfollowers are portrayed as political pygmies but even his adversaries with the exception of Gandhi, perhaps, are considered light-weights. Some theories suggest that Jinnah never actually wanted the division of India and sought at most a fair share of power for Muslims in a united India and it was the Congress leaders who spurned his overtures for an accommodation within a loose federation and instead precipitated the partition because they wanted to rule India through a powerful centre. Ayesha Jalal is the main proponent of this variant of the role of individuals in history.
Other theories identify the fear of the Muslim upper classes of domination by Hindus. It is asserted that upper class Muslim leaders were not willing to accept a junior role for themselves in united India. Muslims had ruled India for more than 600 years andthey could not understand why under a democratic system they should be deprived of power and influence. The veteran Khalid bin Sayeed champions such a theory.
Some theories identify a British handin the creation of Pakistan. It has been suggested that the British were keen to use Pakistan as a base for their geopolitical and geo-economic designs in South Asia. In this regard, in a meeting held on May 12 1947 in London the chiefs of staff of various branches of the British armed forces and in the presence of Field Marshal Montgomery and Lord Ismay, it was observed:
‘From the strategic point of view there were overwhelming arguments in favour of Western Pakistan remaining within the Commonwealth, namely, that we should obtain important strategic facilities, the port of Karachi, air bases and the support of the Moslem manpower in the future… A refusal of an application to this end would amount to ejecting loyal people from the British Commonwealth, and would probably lose us all chances of ever getting strategic facilities anywhere in India…. From a military point of view, such a result would be catastrophic’ (Mansergh, N and Moon, P (eds), The Transfer of Power 1942-47, vol. 10. pp. 791-2).
Whatever the explanation for the origins of Pakistan, it is imperative that it becomes a state in which the rule of law and social justice prevail. For the Pakistani nation, the challenge is to look forward and not backwards.
The writer is a professor of political science anda visiting senior research fellow at the Institute of South Asian Studies (ISAS), National University of Singapore. Email: isasia@nus.edu.sg
ORIGINS OF THE TNT IN THE SUBCONTINENT
Contrary to the common belief that Jinnah originated the two-nation theory, actually it was Savarkar who propounded the theory years before the Muslim League embraced the idea. Savarkar had commanded all the Muslims to leave ‘Bharat’ to pave the way for the establishment of Hindu Rashtra. When Jinnah introduced his two-nation theory, Savarkarannounced, “I have no quarrel with Mr. Jinnah’s two-nation theory… It is a historical fact that Hindus and Muslims are two nations.”
“His (Savarkar’s) doctrine was Hindutva, the doctrine of Hindu racial supremacy, and his dream was of rebuilding a great Hindu empire from the sources of the Indus to those of the Brahmaputra. He hated Muslims. There was no place for them in the Hindu society he envisioned.” (Freedom at Midnight, by Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins).
So the hate campaign against Muslims was well in place even before the partition of erstwhile British India. This and many other significant factors forced Jinnah to demand a separate nation for Muslims as he believed that Muslims would not be safe in India — a prophetic declaration indeed! There is no denying the fact that Jinnah was secular to the marrow and would never have wished to cut ties with India, but circumstances compelled him to do so. However, he had not harbored grudges against India or its leaders. He had kept his house on Malabar Hill, thinking he could weekend there, while running his country from Karachi on weekdays, but destiny had something else in store for the estranged neighbors of the Asia Partition.
When Nathuram Godsepumped three bullets into Gandhi, a section of the Hindu community compared him withJudas. The writing was on the wall. The dividewas evident. In some areas people mourned the death of Gandhi, and in other areas they distributed sweets, held celebrations, and demanded the release of Godse. Gandhi’s crime was that he had demanded security for Muslims.
The seeds of partition were actually sown by the stalwarts of Hindu Mahasabha, primarily the quartet of Savarkar, Gawarikar, Apte, and Nathuram Godse. Independent India’s history is testimony to the fact that in a conflict between the forces of secular nationalism and religious communalism, the latter has always ruled the roost. Secular forces have more often than not ended up playing into the hands of communal forces. Such has been the history of independent India, and it is again on display in Jammu. Syed Alvi Teheran Times
Filed under: 2 Nation Theory, Geog. 2 Nation Theory, Harappa, Hindu Mahasaba, IVC, Moenjadaro, Pak CA, Pak Info, Pakistan Existed 5K yrs ago, Pakistan Ideology, Pakistan hist, S. Asia History | Tagged: Geog. 2 Nation Theory, Harappa, History of Pakistan, IVC, Moenjodaro, Pakistan existed 5000 years ago
Force is all-conquering, but its victories are short-lived. ~Abraham Lincoln In 1821
2009: On August 15, India’s independence day, Lal Chowk, the nerve centre of Srinagar, was taken over by thousands of people who hoisted the Pakistani flag and wished each other “happy belated independence day”:-- Arundhati Roy
(Pakistan celebrates independence on August 14)
Modi & Hindu fundamentalist Modi in “India” funded by US Gujaratis
Governor Bobby Jindal is financed by Indian American Hotel Association and he supports the IAHA which funds Modi
Indian Hotel Association hosts Modi after US denied him a visa 
“We should have nothing to do with conquest.“ In Thomas Jefferson 1791
The PPPP emptied the treasury in 6 months!
Mr. Modi the Chief Minister was implicated in these riots--supported by Indian Hotel Owners Association in America--the same group that supports Gov. Bobby Jindal
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Laden's secure mountain hideout?
Dear MR. Anshari,
One fundamental question ……………………………..Did ISLAM existed 5000years Back
Islam did not begin in 622 AD or with the prophet Muhammad. It is actually “Deen e Ibrahimi”. Abraham existed 5000 years ago. The first prophet of Islam was Adam.
[...] We remember the 1 million lives lost in creating a country, and also rededicate ourselves to the fact that “Pakistan manzil nahin, Nishan e Manzil hai”. Thatmanzil was defined by Iqbal, Liaqat, Jinnah and many others who carry the banner in the land of the Crescent and Star. Despite some impediments we have not lost track of the “manzil“. Pakistan as it existed 5000 years ago [...]
The all barbaric face of Pakistan Civilization can be estimated from the very fact of the days, it is under military rule since independence. A country, where the important leaders are leveled as inappropriate persons and thrown away as fugitives e.g. Mussaruf, B. Bhutto, Z.A Bhutto, Nawaz Sarif, and so on can never be termed as a civilization only this can be a place of safe refuge of unsocial human like primitives, who get inflated by self propagated so called truth, which is much more imaginative.
well thepeople of undivided punjab and have same physical features .some are hindus or sikhs.they are aryan .
I totally disagree with Hindustanis who always balme Pakistan 4 not havin DEMO-CRAZY like Hindustan 4 continuous 60 years of its existance.Well, we Pakistanis r very lucky in a sense that we r the only nation in almost whole world which has tried all the systems 1 can name.We had in times,1 party system,2 party system,Dictatorship,presidential system,prime ministerial system,Sharia as a parallel system etc.But on the contrary Hindustanis who r self acclaimed champions of democracy r livin in a wrotten system which is neither Democratic nor secular.It is rather a new system known as EYE-WASH system.This system suits the Hindustani culture best as it has proven beneficial in makin the whole world fool in the name of Democracy n secularism.Other benefits r ethinic cleansin of minorities,violation of human rights,indiscriminate killin of muslims in kashmir,Gujrat n Khalistan etc.Having just 1 DEMO-CRAZY system in whole life is like havin 1 car or just 1 girl friend 4 whole life which can make a human being desperate.Its good 2 try different cars.I don wana say anythin reagardin gal freind as Ms Kiran might not like it.
Hi,
I understand your seniment, but disagree with your call for support from India. Building a modern pakistan is your own business. Unless the doves within pakistan have the nerves and guts to fight hawks, Indian support has no meaning.
Besides, we have our own country to build and develop. We cannot afford to committ resources to help such weak leadership.
History is not in favour of pakistani leadership.
In 60 years of existance, India has thrown up weight behind secular and moderate leadership of congress for more than 40 years. For a brief period, the power was with a conservative party BJP, but even Mr. Vajpayee isn’t a person carrying a burden of religious fanaticism. He paid the price for leaning towards so called Hindutva brigade by loosing the elections. That’s our strength.
Compare this with Pakistan.The civil leadership there doesn’t have the nerves to cross with the hawks within, let alone overthrowing them. Because the leaderships hasn’t been sincere in their effort to build a modern, forward looking state. They have quietly allowed the Yahya’s and Zia’s to regress Pakistan in middle age religious fanatic methods. The government of the day may be the weakest of all the scares civil governments.
And by the way, Pakhtun’s are not the only people with warrior history. Maratha’s and Sikh’s too have it. But we have left the gun culture behind and modernised. If Pakhtuns want to live in seventeen’s century, we do not have anything to say.
Ms Kiran(Hope u r Ms not Mrs)Westrenized confused desi breed is more dangerous than Taliban.Both r exteremists in nature.Latter being more superior though.
Mr. wildpegions comments are evidence of talibanisation of Pakistan. Your comment please Mr. Ansari!!!
Kiran:
Not at all. Since 1940 Muslims in British India have voted for moderate parties like the Muslim League and rejected the religious parties which preached theocracy. Since 1947 Pakistanis never gave more than 5% votes to the religious parties and Pakistan never had an extreme religious figure as a prime minsiter or president. No one like Vajpayee ever can hope to become the PM in Pakistan and religious extremsits like Modi Adhvani and Thackery can never get the clout in Pakistan.
The events in FATA are political in nature on several counts.
1) They are a result of the occupation in Afghanistan
2) They are the result of the American war on terror
3) Thery are the result of the intrusion of the Pakistan Army into the Tribal Areas of Pakistan. This intrusion is not in accordance with the deal and agreement signed with the Tribals in 1947. Nor is it in accordance with the 1973 constitution that demarcates the authority of the Central and provincial governments
4) We have published severla articles on the “Push and Pull theory”. When there is a Police Raid on 42nd streetin NY, the drug dealers do not vanish into thin air–they simply move over ot 52nd street. The same happens in Afghanistan and FATA. The more the donrs bomb the deeper into Pakistani territory will the be militants move.
The Talibs will vanish once the occupation ends
Indians since 1947 have been calling Pakistanis theocrats or religious extremists. Many labeled Qauid e Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah and other Muslim Leaguers in the same category. For Indians the panacea is “secularism”. Pakistanis consider Indian Secularism as a disguse to hide “Hindusim Light”–a version of Hinduism which is Hindu is thought and actions but puts up a vaneer of “fair and balanced” mask–Indian Secularism is as fair and balanced as Fox News is.
http://rupeenews.com/2008/10/17/pakistans-perception-problem/
http://rupeenews.com/pakistan-and-america-what-is-not-known-and-what-they-wont-tell-you/pakistan-the-new-pressler-amendment-should-be-countered-with-request-for-a-marshall-plan-for-pakistan/open-letter-to-the-pakistani-ambassador-suggestions-on-improving-the-brand-image-of-pakistan/
There are religious extremsits in Pakistan, Mozambique, India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Kampuchea, Congo, Tibet, Nigeria, Algeria, Bhutan, Egypt, South Africa, Palestine, and Israel etc. To simply say that only Pakistan suffers from extremism is to hide the facts.
There are many forms of “Talibs”. It was a political movement created by the CIA (read Congresman Rohrabaker’s testimony in front of the US Senate) to counter the encroachment of Russia and Iran back into Afghanistan. The Talibs had no religious education or religious agenda.
In order to attack Afghanistan, the Taliaban were maligned and demonized. They also had their problems. Their treatment of women and the destruction of the Budhda’s were horrible examples that need to be condemned. However the Talibs were not religious in nature. In the face of media scrutiny and international pressure they simply deteriorated into an unrecognizable form or government or lack of it. That being said, most Afghans think that they were much better off under the Tlaibs than they are under Hamid Karzia’s incompetent and corrupt government. The lot of the women has not improved and Afghansitan has become a Narco state with Mr. Karzai’s brother as the lead Narco Drug Lord.
Today the old “Talibs” are dead and gone. There are 38 groups fighting the UN and US occupation forces. One of these is the “Taliban”. We have published many reports on this matter.
“Allah O Akbar” for most Pakistanis is like “Jai Hindh” for Indians. We will not rain of WildPigeon’s parade. He can speak for himself. I don’t think WildPigeons comments can be attributed to any Talib faction or evens dispalys any religious extremism at all. We will let him defend himslef which he can and does to elequently.
We published an article on “Indian perceptions of Pakistanis” and it clearly shows that Indians cannot see anything good in Pakistan, Pakistanis or Muslims in general. This is sad becuase it represents the worst in India and Indians. The main reason for this is the religious dogma that is taught in Indian schools and temples as history. In order for India to exist it has to be secualr—therefore all other forms of government are evil. Becuase India has a democracy therefore all people on the planet must have it…and those who do not are Subhumans.
The Pakhtuns have always been armed. This is their way.
The militancy in Pakistan is a direct result of the belligernacy of India towards Pakistan. The more that India threatens Pakistan the more the doves go underground. The Hawks take over.
Unless and untill India generates Voltaires who are able to challenge the above paradigms, the mistrust will continue to exist and relations between Pakistan and India will never improve.
Mr. Wild Pigeon the Taliban is not an outcrop of any suppression or torture by anybody !!! It is a strategy of the Pakistan Govt. and the Army to counter India and its Supporters, or else they couldnot dare to strike when the Srilankan team was in Pakistan. It shows that these groups hav full support of your Government. We have seen videos of the terrorists escaping on the National Television. Now you need to act Honestly !!!
I agree with u Mr Prakash but let me clear ur concept bout Talibans.Taliban is not simply an organization,army or malatia rather its a complete ideology which has deep religious n cultural roots.1 can never eradicate Taliban completely but they could b disciplined.Pakistan is in fight with CIA,RAW n MOSSAD funded paid terrorists who lost the battle so quickly that their funders couldn even get time 2 rethink their strategy.Pakistan is not at fight with Talibans,it is fightin terrorists.The real Talibans r always desperate 4 a war front.They along with the martial tribes of Pakistan cant survive if there is no war.War is their culture n livelihood.They r not afraid of dyin in the battle.They r busy in Afghanistan.In very near future they will get a new front in Kashmir or in case of CIA,RAW & MOSSAD’s open attack against Pakistan they will start spilling from Pakistan borders.They will b uncontrollable then as they will find their favourite past time habbit of killin Hindus over Hindu-kush…Hindu’s-tan knows that..They r desperately tryin 2 engage em in Pakistan n as a result funding em with money n weapons.This very same money n weaponery is goin 2 b used against Bharat in very near future….
I hate when people like Kiran tell us about Pakistan.Pakistani stage,drama,folk music,Pop music art n culture is renouned all over the world.Yes we r religious people not like Hindustanis who feel pride in makin their own daughters naked infront of whole world in the name of progression.Indians love 2 b westernised but the resultin breed looks pathatic with the skin color they got n especially the accent they got.
well,
That does not respond to my fears. I still believe that pakistan is being talibanised. Just like gujarat is being Modilised here in India. But the difference is, we have a democracy which has time and again rejected the fanatic model. People have taken firm stand against such elements here.
I see no such rational element in pakistan talking against aristocracy. Pakistan hasn’t produced anyone like Shivaji who would rescue the common people from the clutches of Aristocracy . No one like Jyotirao Phule ever was born in Pakistan who would regourously question the scriptures and denounce the so called ‘ Hinduism’ . No Dr. Ambedkar ever stood up to institutionalised equity.
You have mentioned the book Indus saga. I read it. I would ask you to read another book by same author written along with Meghnad Desai. “Divided by Democracy”
Should see this web-page
https://forums.yaleglobal.yale.edu/thread.jspa?threadID=951&tstart=60
Hi,
Let me clarify one thing. I certainly recognise that Pakistan has claim to IVC. But claiming that IVC is pakistan is far too rediculous to agree.
Regarding two nation theory… nation state as an idea is of a recent origin. Precisely speaking, not more than 450 years old. No sane person can stretch it back so much in the history till IVC. So if not a single nation ever existed at that point of time, ‘two’ nations idea is far fetched. Repeating the sentence “Pakistan existed 5000 years ago as IVC” will not help changing the facts.
Apart from this, I can give you some lerning on how Pakistani people themselves cut their ties from the rich IVC
1. IVC people were peace loving. Can you say same about pakistan?
2. IVC people enjoyed music and art. Taliban minded people in pakistan, which I believe are majority , see art and music as devil’s work.
3. IVC did not follow any religion. What is pakistan’s identity minus islam.
4. Logic and reasoning is what India inherited from IVC. Pakistan has lost it’s touch with these two long back. Pakistan has been talibanaised.
5. IVC people were trading community. They trades what modern economist call ‘goods’ . Pakistan’s trading traditions ends with gun and ganja.
So why don’t you please introspect and revive the good old IVC days in pakistan and denounce the Talibanisation of your nation? You cannon, becauses from the posts I read, I have strong reason to believe that you yourself are a pro talibani pakistani like majority of your countrymen. May allah help pakistan survive.
Dear Mr. Ansari,
I happy that you want to claim the IVC as your history. Very courageous of you. But let me know if common pakistani shares this sentiment.
Untill this point I had no idea that people of pakistan actually are as proud as indians to claim their roots in IVC. My impression was that popular perception in pakistan agrees more with mr. Ismail Syed, as posted on November 5th, 2008 at 12:46 am. I thought you people take pride in denouncing and even distroying the religionless pagan culture that was in IVC.
I thought you take pride in your roots from middle east, or central asia.i thought you people are proud to be ‘conquoror’ and ruling for 1000 years over South Asia (You must appriciate that i have avoided the word ‘Indian Subcontinent’)
I’m relived to find people like you reaching to history and logic and thus thinking beyond Islam.
Dear Kiran:
Namastay, Salaam and Hello!
Thank you for your feedback. There is a plethora of opinions on this. However the general consensus is that the IVC was a Pakistani civilization and as such Pakistan existed 5000 years ago. Read Ahtizaz Ahsan’s “Indus Saga”.
We appreciate the grand gesture to South Asian sensitivities. Many are proud of the rule also. Many Indians you must appreciate the fact that I avoided the word “Hindustan”) vociferously deny Pakistan as the inheritor of the IVC. Many comments on that too.
Thank you for your comments. Please keep coming back and visit often.
Was Salaam and Namashkar.
Moin
Please there was no PAKISTAN before 1947 !!!
Of course the Ganges people know nothing about the Indus people.
Your temple “education” shows your ignorance about the history of the IVC. Please see the map of the Indus Valley and then look at the map of Pakistan.
Does a liht bulb go up?..no of course not, there is a permanent disconnet upstrairs.
Wallahi too funny.
To think Vijay thought Hindu ‘Kush’ meant something good about Hindus!
Every Urdu / Persian speaking person knows (as Mr MA rightly pointed out) that ‘Hindu Kush’ means the ‘Killer of Hindus’ (i.e. mountain range) in Persian because the place was so inhospitable that they couldn’t ever survive there … another story has it that some Hindus including women tried to go there and froze to death. Any Urdu/Persian word followed by kush means killer e.g suicide is khud kushy.
LOL I always said to my sister that when Hindus / Indians hear the word ‘Hindu Kush’ they prolly get flattered thinking it’s something good (and would somehow try to take credit for it!) ….I always wished somebody on TV news would translate what it actually means and it ain’t complimentary.
Ah delusions of grandeur and Indian pipe dreams…
i really appreciate the great efforts you’ve put in your research but please take my advice to your soul. You must not believe something if you are so much possessed by it (In your case it is your country). Sometimes you must be brave enough to accept the truth. You know the truth very well so I don’t want to repeat like my other fellow readers. I’m son to an Indian Mother and Swedish father and I’m a historian also. We have a lot of Pakistani population here in Sweden and I was just showing your article to some of them and even they were laughing at it (They really love their country but lie is a lie). Keep writing…
Mr. Stephan thank you for your feedback. Obviously “someone” has done a good snow job in making you believe temple fantasy as education.
The article is well researched representing History. There are many books representing this point of view — Ahtizaz Ahsan’s “Indus Saga” is one of them. A real historian would have read the article and checked the references.
Vacuuity of ideas use the crutch of personal anecdotes and jibes. It is amazing that a “historian” would believe in a certain version of propoganda and be unable to see a different version of events.
Maybe next time if you are able to reach this site, you may wish to reasses your flamebait commentary.
You may want to investigate perceptions of Sweden around the world. The entire planet knows Sweden for one thing and one export ONLY. Hint: it’s not Volvos!!
PS: Pakistani politeness towards Mr Stephan may not represent historical expertise.
Best Regards
Editor Rupee News
I am a student, i went through many ariticles on this site, although i can disagree with certain contents, i appreciate the unique approach and hard work done by Moin Ansari and his team .. controversies are non-conformist ideas/acts and are always debatable however, every new idea represents innovation and skill .. its a positive site over all, regardless of some of its contents may be controversial
Hammad: Thank you. We will continue to work hard to bring the information to you. Our approach is unique and yes we bring different ideas to the table. Hence the response. We got 80,000 hits a few days ago. Reuters and the Chicago Sun Times picks us up on a regular basis.
May God Bless you too. IVC was Pakistani!
May you go in Peace and keep visiting
I was about to log off but you sure are not allowing me to – a quick question. Does Budhism believe in re-incarnation or not?
another quesiton – who dated the vedas?
one more question – who dated Hinduism origin
Some remarks
who said IVC happened before Hinduism. What was Hinduism as defined then?
some more -
so what if it is late or early, the fact of the matter is Harappan civilization existed, right? do you cease to be your father’s child because you were born last. do not understand the logic as your whole premise was based on the fact that pakistan should not allow Delhi to claim legacy of Harappan…
Anyhow If you want to tell your story, it is fine. I have always being saying that your story is good and dream on.
half glass full for one is half glass empty. Indra, Mithra were Zorastrian.Fine. But if one has to believe that a tree is strongest where its roots are, then the names are known more in and around Ganga than in Iran.
So, one can understand where it could have originated from. Again, glass half full for one is half empty for other.
So can be Brahmin and Ibrahmi.
I never talked about chariots in ice age and whether it was partial site or latter settlements, the fact was that they were Harappan settlements in Gujarat.
I can continue to follow up with you on Tamil language etc… but
Good to close it on the point you mentioned that all religions being from one fountain. The same thought that Swami Vivekanana put it in a beautiful way saying that all religions are like rivers flowing into the ocean. Peace and may God bless you
For those that cannot read, we put a map at the top of the page. The map clearly shows Gujarat as part of the late Harappan and post Harappan period.
For those that cannot read, we also posted a graphic timeline that clearly shows the phases of the Harappan period.
Neither History nor Science deals with with reincarnation (or heaven or hell for that matter). Neither Buddha nor Buddhists nor anyone else ever believe that Buddha was a reincarnation. This reincarnation stuff was created after Buddhism was exterminated by the Brahmans.
You still did not explain how chariots ran around during the ice age.
There are many plans for 2020. Have you seen the one for India? If pigs would fly the Philippines would still be part of the USA (annexed in 1920) Vietnam would be a US colony, and all of Korea would be a brothel for US troops..and Pakistan would not be a nuclear power….and someone would be havng a chota peg in Lahore…none of that happened.
Indira, Agni and Mithra were Zorastrian and post Zosatrian entities. The Hurasvati was in Iran and still is.
You still did not explain how there were chariot fights in the ice age.
Also as already explained to you…the Lothal sites is post 1500 BC and Histanpur is not even a full site, thoug it has some artifacts from the post Harrappan age…much much later than the IVC…the map shows it all
As the jungle was cut…the IVC people moved Eastwards.. eventually the Ganges Plains where “Hinduism” developed much much much later
This was a discussion on archeology and history nor religion.
BTW: Chaudhry Rehmat Ali’s “Norhtwest India” included Lucknow, Agra and Delhi.
PS: At the height of IVC the Prophet Moses was roaming about in Mesopotamia and the IVC traded with the people of Sumur
PSS: Brahmin may be from “Ibrahimi”. Suhrawardi wrote about ..all religions being from one fountain
Good. Now you accept Harappan civilization had a foot print in Gujarat also. Whether that was late Harappan or early Harappan. It was Harappan, right?
Where did Budha come from in this discussion? And Budha was born a Hindu. Budhism also has the concept of re-incarnation, non-violence etc. Worshipping Budha, I can still be as much a Hindu as I am worshipping a Krishna.
There is no religious dogma here. Why is that this sentence is repeated always.
Please read about excavations in Dwaraka and Rig Veda to know about timelines so that you get the context. As I said, in Hinduism, science and religion co-exist.
Anyhow, I need to log off now. Not sure if I get to your site again but it was fun reading your story also.
Thank you
And by the way, when you get time, please read about American ThinkTank vision for Pakistan in 2020.
I see no use in this debate if you keep repeating your “8th grade” story. Harappan civilization flourished in vast expanses of land – from Baluch to Gujarat to Delhi (Hastinapur). Guj/ Delhi are definetely in India. And I never said that Baruhi tribe language resembled Sanskrit. It resembles Tamil. Tamil is very different from Sanskrit. In fact, this was one of the basis of Aryan/ Dravidian story. Hope you understand that.
Anyhow, If you want me to believe that IVC has nothing to do with Hindu, I will – to keep you happy. But since geographically Harappa civilization has its footprint in current India also, how can Pakistan alone claim legacy? Especially if nothing in Islam even by remotest chance has a mention of Harappan civilization. At least I can quote Hindu references like Pasupati, Indra etc.
>> Mahabharatha could have occured sometime around 10,000 BC. Much before Harappan civilization
see religious dogma runs into science….NASA or no NASA
…during the ice age there was no charriots running around.
The Gujerat sites are LATE harappan around 1500 BC when the IVC invaded or immigrated to Gujarat…the IVC was on the banks of the Indus…the rest of the sites are much later than 1500 BC.
Buddha was 600 BC…he was not Hindu..and Buddhists do not worhsip the Hindu pantheon…even though Hindus claim him os one of their own…Buddha does nt mention any of the pantheon….
so the rig veda etc Mahabharta and kora panda happened in rural areas not URBAN areas of the IVC.
Moin Sir – Facts first. Harappan elements were found in and around Gujarat, New Delhi. So, going by your logic, the current domicile / residents of this area should also lay claim to the legacy. Forget if they have lineage, if they practice the lineage etc. Pasupati seal was excavated. Pasupati means Lord of Animals… well, whatever you say, Pakistan as it stands today and as it stands for today cannot claim the legacy…. unless you accept that all Pakistanis are converts. Yes, some evidence suggests that bodies were buried but so what. Even till date, all Hindu saints are buried. And the horses thing is a hog wash. This was used by historians till Pasupati seal was found in 1960’s . Hindus do eat Meat. They would have eaten beef also but would have realized that it is not good practice to eat meat/ beef which now the world is learning (Mad Cow Disease?). Guess somehting like mad cow disease would have happened and the ban would have become religion. Hope you now understand that i am selectively using words as typing is an issue with me. My earlier post of not being stuck to a book that was written keeping in mind that circa is something important to grasp.
In fact, your argument on religion on science clearly shows the difference between religions based on books and religions which have evolved over the ages.
Hinduism does not go against science. It does not say that world was created in 7 days. It also does not say that Sun sets in muddy sand, does not say that earth is flat, that there are seven heavens, etc. So, what you find in Ramayana or Mahabharatha is actually history Guess you have seen NASA pictures of “Adams” bridge. This is also called as Ram setu. Dwaraka site that is now being excavated brings Mahabharatha to life. And just so that you also get some sense of time — Mahabharatha could have occured sometime around 10,000 BC. Much before Harappan civilization
Anyhow, as I said, go on dreaming. It is good.
You still did not provide any historical information other than religious dogma. Kindly do not repeat 8t grade story books. Our thesis is base don on acrcheology and references are given in this article and the 500 paged history book called “The 7000 Year old Pakistani Civilization”.
We know who the Baruhis were. Baruhi is not like any of the Sanskrit languages. It is very much like Darri/Pushto and Baluchi.
The oldest part of the Subcontinent is not the Baruhis, but Mehahgarh…which also does not have anything to do with the Hindu culture/religion or language.
Rig Veda hyms came in much later than the prime of the IVC…the are not the oldest in the world…the IVC pictographs are older. The IVC did not contian any Rig Veda poems, or Yagur Veda hyms in any form.
Whether the word “hindu” existed or not is besides the point……tthe culture of the IVC was not the same as the culture professed by your own account. The map shows a clear evidence of the uniqueness of the IVC, separate and different from the Ganges plains.
The IVC was not Hindu in any form. The Indus people buried thier dead (as opposed to the Hindus who cremate their dead). The IVC did not have horses (as opposed the Mahabharta and Ramayana scriptures which use the horse). The IVC people had a pictographic script right to left (as opposed to Sanskrit which is left to right). The IVC didnot workhip the Hindu Gods (Vishnu, Cow, Arjun etc.). The IVC people ate beef and were not vegetarian (as opposed to Hindus who do not eat meat).
I know about Hinduism…we were discussing the Hindu Pantheon…none of them were worshipped by the IVCs..sory..the IVC is purely Paksitani as the amp on the tp of the article shows…
Personal insults ignored. Any futher personal insults will ban you from the site
Am reading some of your comments – [personal insult deleted]
Rig Veda, the oldest book in the history of mankind (thus far) mentions about “Hariyupia”. It is intepreted by many scholors as Harappa. It talks about a battle that Indra fought on the banks of river Ravi and won. Go and also check the existence of the Brahui tribe in Baluchistan, to the west of the Indus. They speak a Dravidian language like Tamil spoken in southeast India. No one during IVC spoke Arabic, the language of Quran. Well, I can go on…
I am sure you would respond that Hinduism was also never mentioned anywhere. Well, Hinduism as a word did not exist till 1000 AD for sure. It was the British who popularized the word. It was always called Sanathan Dharma. The eternal truth.
You should understand that Hinduism (for easier reference, I am calling it so) is not based on a book. We do have great books like Artha Shashtra written by Kautilya where like in Quran, Kautilya tells how to split wealth, how to kill enemies, how to govern etc. That is a not a religious book!!! Such books become Smrithi’s as they talk about the best possible way to live in that time. Like Manusmrithi.
Anyhow you have a good site and you can publish your dreams. So, carry on. Have fun
Your stories are based on religious dogma not archeological or historical facts.
Religions are to be respected but cannot substitute for history.
We are talking about 3500 BC. Your discussion is not dated.
Religious dogma cannot be used to augment an argument. We are discussing historical facts. A new book on the subject confirms our point of view. You amy also read “The Indus Saga” by Ahtizaz Ahsan and a plethora of books on the IVC by Dale, and Mughal as well as “Aryans” by Childe.
The IVC was not Hindu in any form. The Indus people buried thier dead (as opposed to the Hindus who cremate their dead). The IVC did not have horses (as opposed the Mahabharta and Ramayana scriptures which use the horse). The IVC people had a pictographic script right to left (as opposed to Sanskrit which is left to right). The IVC didnot workhip the Hindu Gods (Vishnu, Cow, Arjun etc.). The IVC people ate beef and were not vegetarian (as opposed to Hindus who do not eat meat).
The IVC was certainly not Hindu so New Delhi claiming a civilizaiton outside its borders without any culutral or religious links is illogical and does not make any sense.
There was no statue of Shiva found in the Indus Valley. Only one beared figurine was discovered. it has no connection to the Hindu Pantheon
The birth of Lahore could be
Moin Ansari – I came across your site just around 2 hours back and actually found it interesting. In fact, I was begining to appreciate some of your thoughts. But after reading this article, I must say, you lost all the credibility. ICV is called “Indus” VC. River Indus is called “Indus”/ Sindhu. We found Pasupati (Siva) idols in the site. Yes, Pakistan as a part of India existed since ages – Agastya created rishi land called Kashmir (search for meaning of Kashmir). Rama’ son build Lahore (Luv’s town). Gandhari came from Afghanistan (Kandhahar). I do not want to say that Pakistan is now a part of India. Though, I regret that we lost land, I would say it is GRBR. So, if you want to claim IVC, you should also accept that you were all converts and that you cannot show your face to the Almighty when you die as Allah would not know whether you were right in converting to his faith or your forefathers were right in following the religion that they believed in – Sanathan Dharma
Anyhow enjoy your day dreaming – dream about Pakistan while enjoying all the benefits of staying in US
I read through your link, what new do you have to say. We were the conquerer race, we conquered India, read the history of south Asia before writing an article. We came from the west and we were fairer, taller and mightier. The people of the Dravidian civilization were dark. Most Pakistanis are much fairer than the Aryan and the Dravidian races in India. Mr. Moin, your parents may have Dravidian roots, but in general most Pakistanis have Middle Eastern roots, so stop calling this barren civilization like the Indus valley as Pakistani. We have a rich cultural heritage to be proud about.
Ready fire aim. The young ones don’t read, just fire…Who cut anyone off from anything. See Why we created Paksitan on this site
http://moinansari.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/why-we-created-pakistan-the-pakistan-ideology/
You know nothing about this site…just made a comment.
Try selling this piece of nonsense to a historian. So you completely cut yourself out from the Islamic civilization which was responsible for Algebra, Textile, Music, Rennaissance (seeds), poetry, litterature etc etc. Now you want to link
our heritage with a culture completely lacking any of the above. Congratulations for your new identity..I as a Pakistani have no connection with this civilization. Our Civilization begins in the land of the book.
Kabir: You have a wonderful name, one of my favorite poets. However your ideas about this site are strange. We criticize all nations, and all personalities.
India should not be immune to a critical analysis. Your patriotism is getting ahead of itself. The TNT was orignally espoused by the Hindu Mahasaba. Bangladesh by killing Mujib on 14th August 1975 buried secularism deep into the Bay of Bengal and refused to merge into India keeping the TNT alive.
There is an article about Gilani’s hooliganism, and Zardari dimentia. One on Kashmala Tariq. There are several dozen articles criticising Zardari and Sharif and Mushrraf. Either you cannot read, will not read, or don’t want to see beyond your narrow mindedness
Peace!
so mr moin personal insult is not permitted on ur site, but hurting personal feelings and discussing sex lives of individuals is permitted on ur site! how many articles are there on ur site criticising Pakistan , I can tell u so many about india. u cannot fool readers . like world has come to know about pakistan in recent time and startied criticising it,including old friend , fund lender USA, the same manner all these people supporting ur site will b aWare of ur site’s agenda. if what’s I m saying is wrong , then let reader’s deccide ! let’s make present facts straight while discussing or elsE what’s the aim of this article and ur site, just time pass!hindukush means as per u hindu killer and not who killed hindus, I hope u understand d difference.though no genuine hindu will be proud of that.by d way kush is derived from kushan and correct meaning is given in sanskrit literature . I will ask questions about pakistan , muslims their sects, traditions and present world concerns in my next post! by the way do u support or condemn views n actions of ur muslim brothers Osama and Dawood , and 9/11, just comment this for d time being . if u delete personal insults then u must delete this from comments and other articles of ur site! my comments were not intended to hurt u but just to prove the point that these things pinch to others too. so don’t do what u don’t like other’s do it to you! sorry if I hurt u any way! idea is to live in peace and harmony but wid DIGNITY .Freedom of press doesn’t mean hurt ur fellow human beings ! god bless!
First of all, we appreciate your feedback, and thank you for visiting our site. Your opinion is valuable to us, no matter even if it is contrary to the opinion of the author.
On many occasions we have corrected and changed articles based on the feedback of our readers. We are always open to this.
If you have an open heart and an open mind, you will see the paradigmic incarceration of programming and try to break the shackles of stories taught in your background.
Religious dogma cannot be used to augment an argument. We are discussing historical facts. A new book on the subject confirms our point of view. You amy also read “The Indus Saga” by Ahtizaz Ahsan and a plethora of books on the IVC by Dale, and Mughal as well as “Aryans” by Childe.
If any of the commentators wish to discuss the content, your comments will be published and discussed.
If you had read the article your questions have been answered multiple times. We summarize and repeat the points made in the article.
0) We have been engaging in dailogue for about three decades on these issues and you can find the discussions in the archives.
1) We do not allow personal insults and abuse on this site. All personal insults will be edited (if time permits) or the entire post will be deleted. Personal biases against a country cannot change historical facts.
2) “Kush” means killer in Pushto, Urdu, Farsi and Darri.
3) Hindu Kush was named hundreds of years after the IVC thrived. The presence of “Hindus” in the Hindu Kush is fact. However who was a “Hindu” in the 8th century?,,,anyone who lived on the Indus. The term did not apply to those believed in a certain pantheon of Gods. There were no “Hindus” in the Indus Valley–that term and those who believe in the current pantheon of Gods did not live in the Indus Valley.
4) “tan” is a natural word with means land. Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan are all “tans”.
5) Pakistan is the latest avatar of the Indus Valley Civilization.
6) The Egyptians are the natural inherotrs of the Egyptian Civilization. The Egyptian are Muslim. Their forefathers may have belonged to other religions (phroahs were pagans). That is not the point. The Chinese are Buddhists or agnostics. They are the inheritors of the Chinese Civilization. Their forefathers were not Buddhist (Taoists or Cufucious followers).
7) Similalry Pakistan is the inheritor of the Indus Valley. The georgraphical boundaries of Paksitan are the same as that of the Indus Valley and current country of Bharat is not.
8) The religion of the forefathers of the people of the IVC was not “Hindu” as practiced in Bharat today. The IVC people did not worship Laskhmi, Arjun, Hanuman, Shiva, Sita, Ram.
9) The reason they did not worship these Gods becuase Mahabharta wars describe the Aryan-IVC wars and the Ramayana decribe the inter-Aryan wars that went on in present day Bharat.
10) The IVC was not “Hindu” (current religious dfinition of “Hindus” in Bharat). The Indus people buried their dead, ate beef, did not have or know about horses, ate meat, lived in a non-stratified society and were urbanites. Current Day Bharati Hindus are rural, do not eat meat, abhor beef, use horses and participated in events that happened in the Ganges Valley.
11) This site is about setting the record straight, not patriotism. All countries are criticised. France, Germany, China, Pakistan, the USA and all countries are eulogized. There are many lauditory articles on the site about each of the countries that you have mentioned. India cannot be immune to any criticism. Most Indians are very proud of their democratic traditions. A free press is part of the great democtratic tradiition…however your Bharti tolerance ends when the criticism is directed at India. Many of our authors on the site are Indians, Lankans, Bangladeshis, Nepalese, Dalits, Americans, and Paksitanis.
12) There is some confusion in your minds of what “India” is. India is different than Bharat and there lies the crux of the problem. “India” tries to hijack the collective heritage of the Subcontinent. Bharat should take credit for what is inside its borders and not encorach on the history of countries beyond its borders–that is called hegemonism and territorial expansionism.
13) Your personal insults have been deleted. There is no point in bringing up other subject on this discussion of the Indus Valley Civilization.
14) In answer to your last question, the answer is complex and is based on different paradigms. Your paradigm is different than that of others. According to Islam and the first Muslim was Adam. At the time of the Indus Pakistanis (IVC 3500 BC), Abraham was the Muslim in urr, Sumer and the IVC people had extensive contacts and trade not only with Mesopotamia, but also with the other three civilizations of the time–China, and Egypt. This is eloquently described in various articles on this site our bookd “The 7000 year old Pakistani Civilzation”
15) Pakistan existed as a separate and distinct entity under various monikers–as the Indus Valley, Muluhha, Mekan, Moenjadoaro, Harappa, Dilmin, Bactrea, Kushan–this history has nothing to do with Bharati history based on the Ganges basin.
[personal insults deleted] But when islam didn’t exist in that region at that time from where this word ‘pakistan’ came , if , as per u hindu kush means killers of hindu then that atleast means hindus were present there then only they can b killed. in which script ‘kush’ means killer, who ruled IVC and from where hindus came and got into majority . Even if it was pakistan just bcausE deads used to b burried, would coming generations claim countries like america, europe etc also pakistan, after sometime , as they will find in their history books written by pakistanis and claiming remains of dead there. what rubbish! just answer these questions and then I will ask u some more so ur facts and intentions get correct. [personal attacks delted] Atlast , can u tell me where were u which religion you used to follow in ur previous birth may at the time of of IVC. if u can’t tell about this then no point arguing about what was 5000 yrs ago! waiting fr ur reply.
Kush means “killer” or “Kill”. Hindu Kush means “killer of Hindus”.
Pakistan existed as “the indus valley civilization” 5000 years ago.
The IVC was never part of “Bharat” or Hindustan. The map clearly shows the boundaries of the IVC.
The IVC was not Hindu in any form. The Indus people buried thier dead (as opposed to the Hindus who cremate their dead). The IVC did not have horses (as opposed the Mahabharta and Ramayana scriptures which use the horse). The IVC people had a pictographic script right to left (as opposed to Sanskrit which is left to right). The IVC didnot workhip the Hindu Gods (Vishnu, Cow, Arjun etc.). The IVC people ate beef and were not vegetarian (as opposed to Hindus who do not eat meat).
The IVC was certainly not Hindu so New Delhi claiming a civilizaiton outside its borders without any culutral or religious links is illogical and does not make any sense.
All you postings are correct…except that Pakistan was created from Bharat/Hindustn..even the moutains are named as HinduKush before pakistan existed…
so all you psotings of old culuture is belongs to old Bharat.. wheather Hinduisam or Islam existed before or not… it is the civilazation existed like Khohinoor is with British Queen but it came from south India , Golconda queries.. facts are facts, you like it or not
Zeeshan: Thank you for your comments and feedback. One point that I would like to reconfirm.
The IVC was not Hindu in any form. The Indus people buried thier dead (as opposed to the Hindus who cremate their dead). The IVC did not have horses (as opposed the Mahabharta and Ramayana scriptures which use the horse). The IVC people had a pictographic script right to left (as opposed to Sanskrit which is left to right). The IVC didnot workhip the Hindu Gods (Vishnu, Cow, Arjun etc.). The IVC people ate beef and were not vegetarian (as opposed to Hindus who do not eat meat).
The IVC was certainly not Hindu so New Delhi claiming a civilizaiton outside its borders without any culutral or religious links is illogical and does not make any sense.
well Mr. Joe Brodway, Moin ansari never said anything about religion, so mind ur words, because they hurt us.He was just informing us about the matter of IVC, the crux of his info was as in Spain Muslims did enormous job but Spanish cristian took the credit as they inherit tht culture, so we took the IVC culture credit and its not a bigger issue.
But i am fascinated with the information u both have.
Cheers and have peace
Thank you for your feedback. I am not pansophical and never cliamed to be. We disagree on some parts of history becuase of you grew up on your paradigm and we grew up in the land of the free.
Ahtizaz Ahsan is the author of seminal book called “The Indus Saga”.
We agree with most of what you have said-minus the unnecessary insults and snide remarks.
Whether Hindusism is a religion or not, is no concern of ours and has nothing to do with this article.
The article simply states the obvious–that just like the Chinese are the inheritors of the Chinese civilization and the Egyptians are the inheritors of the Egyptian civilization Pakistan is the inheritor of the Indus Valley Civilizaiton that worked almost exclusively on the banks of the Indus. For whatever reason through multiple conversions the cohesive unit remained intact–Pakistan existed 5000 years ago.
Once again we thank you for visiting our site and thank you for your invaluable comments.
Best Regards
Hello Moin the Omniscient,
You quote Mr. Aitzaz Ahsan, whoever he is (it is funny how you keep creating new names as you string along your new fangled theories), thus..”The Indus person, we are told, is a good soldier because he has “lived in the path of marauders who have come to burn his crops and villages.” Ahsan maintains that the “untiring Aryans”, the “savage Huns”, Alexander himself, the “unrelenting invaders” from Ghazni and Afghanistan… “.
My words were “not forgetting the fact that the marauding armies of the world came thru that area”…..but you claim above in your rebuttal that “Conquerers came through the Kyber pass”..It is true Khyber pass was also used by many armies to enter the then Un-India, but was not the ONLY route…do you really know what you are talking about..don’t give me that limp rejoinder ” read the article “.
No one ever claimed India or Hindus existed 5000 years ago in the Indus valley..we have learnt that in our “8th grade (hi)story” class room..India as a nation came into being only in 1947..the same history class also taught us that it was a country of 560 plus principalities, satrapies, fiefdoms, etc etc ruled by a bunch of good for nothing tyrants..you are right.. the landmass that was called IVC exists today also (where can it go) and it so happens that your country is be situated in that area…you are about as much a citizen of IVC as the Egyptians are of the kingdom of Pharaohs… as per divine revelation to Moin Ansari and his cohorts @Rupee News….Pakistan has been in existence for about 5000 years..
Regarding DNA, how silly can you get, when you say “DNA tests in the Punjab, Sindh and Baluchsitan confirm that the DNA has survivied for 5000 years in the geographic location”..of course it will survive for hundreds of generations..Mitochondrial DNA, passed from the mother only, does not change from parent o offspring..it has been used to track lineage..similarly the “Cohanim” community of Jews have traced the dispersal of their people to S. Africa by tracking the “Y sex chromosome, which is passed intact from father to son”.
Are you telling me that your DNA is the same as the guy whose fat face we see on the seals of Mohenjodaro..if so, women all over the world will be lining up to have your seeds implanted in them. Remember, the story of the “Ice Man” whose body was found in the Alps when the Ice melted..many women in Europe wanted to have his child, but his body was badly done in..I saw your interview where you claim you have 3 degrees and some more you obtained here..what a waste of time & money..looks like it didn’t do you any good..except, you have learnt to regurgitate some catch phrases like “8th grade history” or “Not sure what your wrote has to do with the price of rice in China”..of course you don’t need many degrees to get educated..education & qualification are two entirely different thingsl.
Lastly, the children of Abraham have shown that they are willing to have blind faith in what is purported to have been revealed by god to a chosen man and not question the veracity of such beliefs. We the Hindus are skeptics and that is why there are thousands of treatises on the possibility of that god’s non-existence. The reason so many religions co-existed peacefully, in the Un-India for all these years is merely because we simply believe your religion is your business as long as you dont bother me with yours. We don’t believe that one needs to accept a specific god in order to be salvaged..that is like 2 for 1 sale in Wal Mart..no, we have no prophet as we don’t believe one man can know all that much about an issue that is veru nebulous at best..The so called Hinduism is not a religion in the strictest sense, but a way of life..a good life, where we live in peace with others..it was so, until it was shattered by you and your cousins wearing a cross visited our land and then the plague..it is funny they say Christ died for all of us and they kill people who didn’t believe in that..you guys have a holy book in one hand and a grenade in the other..both can only take you down into Abyss…maybe the Sufis know something you guys don’t
If you can read or if you had seen the maps you should have seen and known that the Subcontinent had more than 570 states plus it had areas ruled direcetly by the East India Company (for 100 years ’till 1857). After 1857 there was British Raj in some areas. States like Kashmir, Hydrabad (more than 570) had their own currency, army, legal systems, raja/nawab/king and was NOT part of the British crown.
Dir, Swat, Bhawalpur, Kahsmir, Hunza, Kalat etc were independent states and not part of the British Empire.
Hard to comprehend? Read the article!
Not sure what your wrote has to do with the price of rice in China.
The map says it all.
Just because they didn’t teach you this in “Indian” (his)story books, in 8th grade, doesn’t mean that the world see it as such…and it does…see references from encclopedias.
The simple fact that is very hard for some to digest is—Pakistan as a political unit existed 5000 years ago on the banks of the Indus.
Conquereres came through the Kyber pass–but the people on the Indus kept on surviving. DNA tests in the Punjab, Sindh and Baluchsitan confirm that the DNA has survivied for 5000 years in the geographic location.
The Indus people wrote a languge that was ditinct from the rest of the Subcontinent, ate meat, buried thri dead and did not workshp any of the Hindu Gods.
Pakistan existed 5000 years ago just like China or Egypt or Iraq did….there are many books on this subject. Read “The Indus Saga” among others.
Get used to it, Harrapa, Mehargarh, Melullah, Mekan and Moenjadaro are Pakistani not “Indian”.
I would like to sell you stamp of Pakistan brought out to commemorate the existence of Pakistan for the past 5000 years and the stamp was released in Karachi on Aug 15, 1932..it is worth a lot of money and I don’t know if you can afford it..maybe if you ask Alibaba, he can sell one of the diamond necklaces he has in his cave and give you the money to buy this stamp..
I didn’t claim anywhere in my piece that Hindus lived in the IVC, but your claim that “Pakistan existed 5000 years ago as the Indus Valley Civilization..” is not only laughably foolish it is not even worth debating..you must believe that present people of Pak have an undisturbed lineage from that generation that lived in Harappa & Mohenjo Daro..not forgetting the fact that the marauding armies of the world came thru that area and left behind women with bloated bellies carrying the seeds forcefully introduced..so, you believe & claim that your DNA is still intact and same as the man the world has seen for all these years on Seals and coins and in “8th grade history books”.
If you think that the British did not live and rule the area that included Karachi, Lahore et al..then, you neither know history nor geography..so long Herodotus..maybe in your next incarnation you will learn to read & understand what you read..
Pakistan existed 5000 years ago as the Indus Valley Civilization. The Indus Valley Civilization which existed almost exclusively on the banks of the Indus exists as Pakistan today, pretty much as the Egyptian Civilization existed on the banks of the Nile etc.
The map shows the conglomeration of 570 states existed side by side with some areas that were part of the British Raj.
100 years of East India company rule and 90 years of Britsh rule on parts of the Subcontinent does not change 5000 years of the history of the people who lived on the banks of the Indus.
The people who thrived on the banks of the Indus were not Hindus–and no amount of relgious propoganda can change the fact that they were not Hindus.
The author has correctly stated that the the Indian agents destroyed the states listed. For the graduates of 8th grade Indian history Hydrabad was “kind of a stae”. Reality tell us that the state was as real as Kashmir and Goa .
More later
I stumbled onto this site, when I was searching for something unrelated to India..
In the body of the article, you claim “..This map shows more than 570 states in the Subcontinent. At this particular stage of the British Raj over the hundreds of states, most of Pakistan is not part of the Raj…”
Then you have the following quote from “The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language” …”After being conquered by numerous rulers and powers, ‘it’ passed to the British as part of India and became a separate Moslem state in 1947″.
How did ‘it’ pass into the hands of the Britts, if ‘it’ was never a part of the Raj. You cant have it both ways..it is one or the other.
In the above, the ‘it’ is the area that is present day Pakistan.
I dont have to tell you what Pak was before Aug 1947..neither do
do I have to remind you of the time of your prophet..it is very difficult for the children of Abraham to comprehend how a belief becomes a religion without having a prophet, to who(m) God revealed him/herself. You are all very didactic and dogmatic with no chance of ever saying ” what if..”. The greatest strength of India is also its greatest weakness..we cant unite under god, as you guys do and would not be surprised if it is torn asunder from within, as it has happened in its past, bloody history
Did it ever occur to you that the present day Pak people happen to fall into an area that was the site of IVC..that your ancestors had nothing to do with it..after all, your ancestors were Hindus who were converted to Islam under the pain of death. So, if the Hindus had nothing to do with it, ipso facto the current Pak people had nothing to do with it. It is akin to modern day Egyptians claiming the credit for the Pyramids..The people of IVC were as far removed from the Pakistanis, as you are from Facts.
You have a right to spread half truths, a la Rush Limbaugh..Rush always says ” the woman never shouted for help or fight the man when she was being raped” but fails to mention that she was hog tied and gagged..this is mere analogy, so don’t start throwing tantrums..
[...] Re: Indus Civilization may have been a powerhouse of commerce and technology Yeah and hindus had time machine and they went back to the history and named the cities falling in indian side on there gods and religous marks. e.g. kali, rakhi and dhol Ever wonder why the civilization map resembels to Pakistan’s map? THE GEOGRAPHIC TWO NATION THEORY: “Pakistan” existed 5000 years ago. IVC thrives as Paki… [...]
Thank you for your feedback. Your information is not correct. Either you do not read the posts or the purpose of your comments is simply to throw insults.
Your questions have been answered above also.
The article addreses the questions that you raise. The Two Nation Theory was originally propogated by the Hindu Mahasaba.
On August 14th 1975 bengalis killed the Indian agent Mr. Mujib and left his sorpose to lie on the street for days. They buried Bangladeshi secularism and Akhand Bharat dreams in the Bay of Bengal. The TNT survives not only in Pakistan, but also in the brave people of bangldesh who refuse to be absorbed into Bharat.
About your comments on Pakistan kindly see the 89 insurgencies in Bharat where more than 40% of the land mass is in the hands of the Naxalites and the 7 sisters are ablaze in rebellion.
About two nation theory. It was given by Iqbal in starting 1900.
Which failed in mere 25 years with independance of Bangladesh in 1971.
Now same thory is about to prove very wrong again as balochistan and Pakhtunistan is near independance.
Indus Valley civilization was Dravidian civilization.
It has nothing to do with present pakistan. Present Pakistan is based on ideology that Muslims cannot live with non-Muslims.
Name Pakistan is mere 70 years old.
Many Paki[stani] scholars are encouraging Pakistani education to have history started from the bith of Muhammad.
Islam which was founded by Muhammad gave foundation to pakistan in 1900.
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Acctually! Its not Ur mistake. U Indians have the habit to not to listen to any fact. Ur thinking is cheap. U acctually dont understand anything about civilization. If U recite all the four Holy Books (Quran, Bible,Torat, Zaboor), U will conclude that the people belonging to India or whatever have no specific role regarding the creation of the Universe, Nor have any role regarding the Dooms day. The story always have three names (Islam, Cristianity & Jewism).
U Indians will never understand these words. Truly speaking, even Jews & Cristians dont accept any Indian story, because they r also “Ehl-e-Kitaab” like Muslims.
Jews hated Cristians, in the mean time “Islam” emerged. So, Jews left the Cristians to their fate & started rivalry with Islam. The time went on, but before the D’day, their will be a big war between the three dominent forces. Lots of people will die & the remaining will join the Victorios force “Islam” because “Islam” means the end of “prophecy”.
In this whole story, I dont see any role for Hindus, Buddists, Communists or any other form of Religion.
For the last 1400 years, the Islamic system (Khilafat) was time to time governed by Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, etc & now its time for Pakistan to do the Job. Its a very difficult time for Pakistan, because it is not only defending itself but also protecting the whole of the Islamic world. U see, for the past fifteen to Twenty years, everyone has a close eye on Pakistan. This region had been in Focus by all the worlds dominent forces for a long time. It seems, Everyone is waiting for something to happen here (as described in Quran, Bible, Torat & Zaboor) .According to the teachings of Quran, Almost 80% of the Muslims believe that the Islamic Army will rise from the region, which belongs to Pakistan. They will march towards Saudi Arabia, & from there, Muslims along with Cristians will attack Israil. The Jews will be defeated. One more war will happen between Muslims & Cristians before the D’ Day. After that , their will be no religion exept “Islam” , & according to Gods will, the “day of Judgment” will happen.
Therfore my brother, dont underestimate Pakistan. Its not just Pakistan, Its a power which no one knows except the destiny. Pakistan has nothing to do with India. Its India, which always have Crocodile tears.
For Ur Information, No party or state has any role in creation of Pakistan exept Destiny.Muslims have been ruling India for almost a 1000 years when the British came. At that time, Islam was spreading very fast in the Sub Continent. No hindu would have been left , had the British didnt succeeded in their conspiracy against Islam. U Hindus should praise the “Goras” which saved Ur Asses.
IVC was inclusive of some part of Gujarat also. Which is a part of India. Anyway, while creation of Pakisthan Radcklife’s Map followed only one agenda, that is british govt’s ruthless agenda. Pakisthan’s geography was destined by British Raj. British Raj din’t even followed Jinnah’s two nation theory also, else J&K and Hyderabad would have been with Pakisthan. Pakisthan was not created by Pakisthani people or Muslims of the subcontinents. otherwise, Bangladesh would not have sought independance from Pakisthan identity.
Indus Valey original people are Dravidians. They are now living in the south India. They have driven out of their indus valey by invader Aryan.
mr Ahsan is a Dravidian, I believe??? if he want to claim his linage.
pl. read the following from the encyclopedia:
Indus Valley Civilization.
The earliest traces of civilization in the Indian subcontinent are to be found in places along, or close, to the Indus river. Excavations first conducted in 1921-22, in the ancient cities of Harappa and Mohenjodaro, both now in Pakistan, pointed to a highly complex civilization that first developed some 4,500-5,000 years ago, and subsequent archaeological and historical research has now furnished us with a more detailed picture of the Indus Valley Civilization and its inhabitants. The Indus Valley people were most likely Dravidians, who may have been pushed down into south India when the Aryans, with their more advanced military technology, commenced their migrations to India around 2,000 BCE
Not sure what the book says. Without any ref. to context readers may think that it is just a shameless plug for the book? Your book is not available on Amazon. Can you send us a summary.
My thesis was captured by Mr. Ahtizaz Ahsan in his book “The Indus Saga”.
“Hurrapan Empire is today’s pakistan”
Please read my book “TAREEKH AOR INQALAB”
Published by BookHome Lahore. I hope you will get real true picture of Pakistan.
Ashfaq Ali
khoon, pasena aur mehnat seh mile yej mulk….lakhoon kee shadat aur aik hazar saal kee mehnat seh mila…
Pakistan – Muft main mila mulk.
I guess they don’t teach you about this in your 8th “Indian” “story books.”
The map of the IVC (Paksitan 5000 years ago) says it all.
Not sure which “you guys” are you referring to?
The IVC did not have any religion so there is no concept of “jhaliya”. There is an overwhelming body of evidence that subscribes to the GTNT. Several books have been written on it—Read the Indus Saga by Aitizaz Ahsan.
Brahaminsim was also imported as Sanskrit is an Indo-European language. Agni, Mitra Indra are Zorastrian and Urr, Sumer Gods. The original poeple of the Subcontinent were not Brhamans.
Most delusional peice of crap I have ever read. For you guys Indus valley is Jahiliya. How can you claim ancestory from it? Everything finished when you converted to Islam and abandoned all native culture, religion and history to yoke yourself to the civlisation of Arabs.